Two Tall Guys Talking Sales – Chris Spanier Explains Marketing Professional Services: Sales Strategies That Actually Work – Episode 142

Two Tall Guys Talking Sales – Chris Spanier Explains Marketing Professional Services: Sales Strategies That Actually Work – Episode 142

By Sean O'Shaughnessey

When marketing professional services, the playbook isn’t the same as product sales, and today’s episode dives into exactly why. Sean O’Shaughnessey and Kevin Lawson are joined by returning guest Chris Spanier, CEO of Carpe Diem Consulting Group and host of the Practical Actionable Marketing podcast. This conversation tackles the nuances of sales strategies for service-based businesses, blending value selling with measurable marketing and aligning both functions for stronger revenue generation. If you’re a business owner, consultant, or fractional executive trying to sharpen your sales processes and improve messaging, this episode is a goldmine of practical advice.

🔑 Key Topics Discussed

  • [02:44] Why traditional product marketing doesn’t work for professional services—and how to adapt
  • [03:46] The importance of measuring marketing effectiveness and integrating KPIs into the sales process
  • [07:36] How to position and market services that don’t have tangible “speeds and feeds”
  • [08:28] Letting go of the fear of “giving away your secret sauce” in thought leadership content
  • [10:30] Systemizing stories and messaging to scale sales efforts across a growing team
  • [12:14] How to use lead nurturing email campaigns to drive engagement and trust over time

🗣️ Key Quotes

  • Sean O’Shaughnessey:
    “Sales is a really expensive marketing arm if you’re not doing really good marketing.”
    — [05:59]
  • Kevin Lawson:
    “Tell how you win, how you help others win, and how they win when working with you—this is as key as anything in professional services.”
    — [10:52]
  • Chris Spanier:
    “If you freely share value, people won’t take advantage of you—they’ll start trusting you. That’s the first step in real sales success.”
    — [08:54]
    “Marketing is half magic and half numbers. But the numbers—that’s where the proof comes in.”
    — [04:14]

📚 Additional Resources

✅ A Significant Actionable Item from this Podcast

Systemize your lead nurturing.
Create a recurring, value-focused email campaign to maintain top-of-mind awareness. Whether your cadence is every three or six weeks, focus 80% on providing helpful insights and only 20% on pitching your services. Tracking measures email open rates and clicks, and then the behavior is aligned with site visits or follow-up outreach. This strategy turns occasional touchpoints into consistent momentum, critical for long-cycle sales in professional services.

🎧 Why You Should Listen Now

This episode is packed with strategic clarity and tactical insight for anyone selling invisible services. Whether you’re a fractional executive, consultant, or marketing-savvy sales leader, you’ll leave with a more innovative approach to messaging, a stronger understanding of sales and marketing alignment, and actionable ways to drive revenue generation with business acumen. Tune in now and rethink how you build trust and momentum in your professional services pipeline.

Two Tall Guys Talking Sales – Elevate Your Sales Game with B2B Sales Lab: A New Resource for Revenue Growth – Episode 141

Two Tall Guys Talking Sales – Elevate Your Sales Game with B2B Sales Lab: A New Resource for Revenue Growth – Episode 141

By Sean O'Shaughnessey

When sales professionals hit a roadblock, where do they turn? In this episode of Two Tall Guys Talking Sales, Kevin Lawson and Sean O’Shaughnessey unveil an exciting new initiative: B2B Sales Lab, a private peer networking community designed to support salespeople, sales managers, and business owners in their journey toward revenue generation excellence. This isn’t just a conversation; rather, we are offering an invitation to join something powerful. If you’ve ever felt alone in a tough sales challenge or wished for experienced advice on your messaging, sales processes, or strategy, this episode is for you.

Key Topics Discussed

  • (00:00) Why selling isn’t easy and how sales professionals can benefit from a support network
  • (00:39) The creation and mission of the B2B Sales Lab community
  • (01:42) How the platform fosters peer-to-peer learning without judgment or pressure
  • (02:58) The importance of community in developing strong sales strategies and business acumen
  • (03:54) Guardrails that make this space safer and more effective than LinkedIn or Facebook groups
  • (05:00) Why there’s a membership fee—and why the first three months are free

Key Quotes

  • Sean O’Shaughnessey (00:01:00): “We’re creating a community where people can get together, bounce ideas off each other without fear—just designed to help.”
  • Kevin Lawson (00:02:58): “It’s unreasonable to think your small sales team has all the answers. But it’s completely reasonable to find a community that does.”
  • Sean O’Shaughnessey (00:04:16): “If you’re not a salesperson or sales leader, you’re not getting in. This isn’t about selling to each other. It’s about growing together.”

Additional Resources

  • B2B Sales Lab Information & Registration: https://newsales.expert/b2b-sales-lab
    (Free for the first three months with no obligation.)

A Significant Actionable Item from this Podcast

Join the B2B Sales Lab.
If you’ve ever wished you had a sounding board for a tough sales call, a creative partner to work through messaging, or a peer to validate your sales strategy, this is your moment. Visit the link in the show notes and apply to join the B2B Sales Lab. The first three months are free, giving you access to experienced sales minds, curated content on value selling and revenue management, and a judgment-free environment to grow your sales acumen. Don’t wait for your next deal to fall through; build your support system today.

Why You Should Listen

This episode is a call to action for sales professionals serious about growth. If you’re navigating complex sales cycles, seeking stronger messaging, or simply want a community that understands your world, the B2B Sales Lab might be the resource you’ve been missing. Kevin and Sean, both seasoned in sales leadership and sales management, offer not just insights but an entire framework to elevate your career. Listen now to learn how to take the next step toward sustainable sales success—and connect with others on the same journey.

Two Tall Guys Talking Sales – Steve Caton Shares When to Sell, When to Coach, and When to Hire: Strategic Sales Management That Drives Growth – Episode 137

Two Tall Guys Talking Sales – Steve Caton Shares When to Sell, When to Coach, and When to Hire: Strategic Sales Management That Drives Growth – Episode 137

By Sean O'Shaughnessey

In this powerful episode of Two Tall Guys Talking Sales, Kevin Lawson and Sean O’Shaughnessey are joined once again by Steve Caton, CEO of Altezza Solutions, for a thought-provoking conversation that zeroes in on one of the toughest decisions in sales leadership: when to sell, when to coach, and when to hire. Whether you’re a business owner, VP of Sales, or a player-coach juggling a quota and a team, this episode brings clarity to the strategic inflection point where growth hinges on letting go. With frank discussion, lived experience, and tactical advice, Kevin, Sean, and Steve guide you through the complex terrain of sales management, revenue generation, and scaling your team without sacrificing results.

Key Topics Discussed:

  • [00:01:58] The pros and cons of player-coach sales roles, and why this model often fails without intentional strategy
  • [00:05:34] How to create a psychologically safe sales environment where learning from failure drives sales success
  • [00:07:11] Steve Caton’s personal transition from sales operator to CEO—and how it triggered exponential business growth
  • [00:09:20] The difference between hiring to “swim faster” and hiring to scale—how business acumen guides the decision
  • [00:13:00] Real-world use cases for fractional sales roles to test new markets or offerings without disrupting core revenue streams

Key Quotes:

  • Kevin Lawson [00:04:57]: “Sometimes you have to let people fail. You can’t push them into failure, but you do have to give them the room to learn. The challenge is, as a leader, you’re still accountable for that failure.”
  • Sean O’Shaughnessey [00:04:01]: “It’s much easier to do one thing well. Let great salespeople sell and great managers manage—don’t dilute either role.”
  • Steve Caton [00:08:30]: “I made the decision to stop selling before I could afford it. Why? Because I knew the payoff would be big. Sometimes, you just have to invest in your business to grow.”
  • Kevin Lawson [00:11:34]: “A sales process with control metrics, plus intentional feedback loops, informs exactly how and where your business should grow.”

Additional Resources:

A Significant Actionable Item from this Podcast:

Reevaluate your team structure and decide: are you scaling or surviving?
If you’re a business owner or sales leader wearing multiple hats, it’s time to assess whether you’re enabling growth or capping it. Consider where your time is most valuable—rainmaking, coaching, or closing—and invest in building the right team around you. Start with fractional or part-time hires to test new roles or markets, then double down when the data supports it.

Closing Summary:

This episode cuts through the noise around sales team building with a refreshing mix of vulnerability, experience, and strategic depth. Whether you’re weighing your first sales hire or deciding to step out of the player-coach role, Two Tall Guys Talking Sales delivers real-world sales strategies that help you align your messaging, sales processes, and revenue management decisions with long-term growth. Don’t miss this one—it’s 15 minutes of business-building insight that could change the trajectory of your sales organization. Hit play now and discover how letting go might be the smartest way to grow.

Two Tall Guys Talking Sales – The Four Buckets of Sales Growth with Steve Wittal

Two Tall Guys Talking Sales – The Four Buckets of Sales Growth with Steve Wittal

By Sean O'Shaughnessey

In this dynamic episode of Two Tall Guys Talking Sales, hosts Kevin Lawson and Sean O’Shaughnessey welcome Canadian SalesXceleration expert Steve Wittal for an in-depth look into the foundations of effective sales strategies. Steve brings decades of experience in startup advisory, sales management, and business growth, sharing a robust framework that simplifies complex growth challenges into four digestible buckets: desirability, clarity, predictability, and deliverability. If you’re a business leader looking to strengthen your sales processes, sharpen your messaging, or improve revenue generation, this conversation is a goldmine.

Key Topics Discussed

  • The Power of Leadership in Change Management (~01:02)
    Steve opens by explaining why leadership is the starting point for any growth initiative, especially when change is involved.
  • The Four Buckets Framework for Growth (~03:00)
    Steve outlines his method for diagnosing and resolving growth issues by focusing on four pillars: desirability, clarity, predictability, and deliverability.
  • Desirability and Understanding the Customer’s Pain (~04:00)
    Why identifying whether your product is a “must-have” or “nice-to-have” is critical to sales success.
  • The Importance of Clarity and Quantifying the Cost of Inaction (~06:39)
    Sean and Steve unpack how clarity in messaging and value proposition can move buyers from indecision to action.
  • Predictability, Scalability, and Sales Playbooks (~09:20)
    How aligning your sales process with the customer’s buying journey enables scale and drives predictable revenue.
  • Deliverability and the Voice of the Customer (~10:50)
    Steve emphasizes the importance of retention, early wins, and referrals as indicators that your solution truly delivers.

Key Quotes

  • Steve Wittal: “A problem well-defined is a problem half-solved. Before we prescribe, we have to truly understand.” (~02:46)
  • Kevin Lawson: “When you’ve dotted all those i’s, it makes you a market-facing product. That’s how you achieve market fit.” (~13:25)
  • Sean O’Shaughnessey: “When a customer comes to you and says, ‘Can you help me solve this?’ — that’s sales nirvana.” (~08:35)

Additional Resources

  • Connect with Steve Wittal on LinkedIn – https://www.linkedin.com/in/stevewittal/
  • Steve’s email: Steve Wittal <swittal@salesxceleration.com>

A Significant Actionable Item from this Podcast

Audit Your Sales Strategy Through the Four Buckets.
Take a moment to evaluate your organization’s performance across Steve’s four key areas:

  • Desirability: Is your product essential or optional to your buyers?
  • Clarity: Can your team articulate your value proposition in a way that resonates with prospects and highlights the cost of inaction?
  • Predictability: Do you have a repeatable sales process that aligns with how your customers buy?
  • Deliverability: Are you consistently delivering on promises and capturing client feedback to validate success?

This self-assessment will uncover gaps in your current sales approach and point to immediate areas for improvement.

Summary

Whether you’re leading a startup or managing a growing sales team, this episode delivers a concise yet powerful framework for achieving sales success. Steve Wittal’s “Four Buckets” offer practical, business acumen–driven insights that will help you reframe your growth strategy and improve every stage of your sales process. If you’re serious about improving revenue generation and becoming a trusted advisor in your client relationships, don’t miss this episode. Tune in now and transform your approach to value selling.

Stop Guessing. Start Assessing: The First Step Toward Sales Growth

Stop Guessing. Start Assessing: The First Step Toward Sales Growth

By Sean O'Shaughnessey

Are you feeling stuck in your sales organization? You’re not alone. Many founders, CEOs, and sales leaders eventually hit an invisible wall—a growth plateau. Key deals slip away. Your top salesperson, who carries far too much weight, starts to burn out.

In these moments, the instinct is often to push harder. But what’s needed isn’t more hustle. It’s clarity. And clarity starts with a strategic sales assessment.

What a Sales Assessment Means

Too often, leaders see assessments as formalities—checklists that confirm what they already believe. That’s a mistake. An accurate sales assessment is diagnostic. It reveals what’s working, what’s broken, and what’s missing.

Revenue growth doesn’t always mean you’re on the right path. Many companies are growing despite misalignment, not because of strategic execution. Are your sales activities aligned with your market opportunity? Are you pursuing the right prospects with the right message? Or are you just getting lucky?

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John Spencer Explains Scaling Sales Teams- Turning A-Player Performance into Company-Wide Success

John Spencer Explains Scaling Sales Teams- Turning A-Player Performance into Company-Wide Success

By Sean O'Shaughnessey

In this episode of Two Tall Guys Talking Sales, hosts Kevin Lawson and Sean O’Shaughnessey sit down with John Spencer, a seasoned sales leader and founder of Clear Direction Sales Development. Together, they explore the crucial differences between growth and scale, particularly in organizations leaning too heavily on a superstar seller. If you’re leading a sales organization that relies on one standout performer—or trying to replicate success across your sales team—this is a must-listen conversation packed with real-world examples and hard-earned wisdom. The trio unpacks why scalable sales processes and strong business acumen matter far more than a single heroic quota-crusher and how to transform your entire team into a consistent revenue-generation engine.

Key Topics Discussed

  • [00:01:20] The difference between growth and scale—and why one without the other creates risk
  • [00:02:30] How over-reliance on a “super seller” can mask weak sales infrastructure
  • [00:04:00] Why building a team of B players can be the key to sales success and organizational growth
  • [00:06:00] Why your people strategy outweighs even the best sales tech or product
  • [00:09:00] How aligning your company around Ideal Customer Profiles (ICPs) and value selling accelerates performance
  • [00:11:00] Inspiring second-tier sellers to level up—and the systems that make that possible

Key Quotes

  • Kevin Lawson [00:00:00]: “What do you do when you’ve got a standout salesperson and you’re trying to scale? Today’s the day to take notes and learn from best practices—and avoid the ones that put you in a bind.”
  • John Spencer [00:01:50]: “Growth is often just out-hustling the competition. Scale is when your sales management creates repeatable success across the team.”
  • Sean O’Shaughnessey [00:04:00]: “You can’t build a company on nothing but A players. You need B players who can perform with strong sales processes—that’s how you truly scale.”
  • John Spencer [00:07:24]: “When one salesperson becomes the center of gravity, the whole company starts working for them. That doesn’t scale.”
  • John Spencer [00:10:08]: “Let’s align the organization to help the salesperson like they’re a mini-CEO. That’s how we build momentum and create sustainable revenue management.”

Additional Resources

  • Connect with John Spencer: LinkedIn Profile – John Spencer (https://www.linkedin.com/in/johnspencerinc/)
  • Company: Clear Direction Sales Development
  • Contact: Direct phone, email, and Calendly available on John’s LinkedIn

A Significant Actionable Item from this Podcast

Stop idolizing your top seller—start systematizing their success.
Identify what makes your A player successful, then document and distribute that knowledge across your sales organization. Build a repeatable process that supports B players in becoming high performers. Use Ideal Customer Profiles (ICPs), clear value propositions, and structured onboarding to reduce variance and elevate the middle 60% of your team.

Why You Should Listen to This Episode

If your company is stuck in a “hero model” of selling—where success depends on a single superstar—this episode will open your eyes to what’s truly holding your sales strategy back. With practical insights on aligning your team, refining your messaging, and unlocking scalable revenue generation, John Spencer joins Kevin and Sean in a candid conversation that blends military-grade leadership with sales precision. Whether you’re a CEO, VP of Sales, or just trying to level up your sales team, this episode is your blueprint for transitioning from hustle-based growth to process-driven scale. Don’t miss it—press play and rethink what it means to grow.

Stop Guessing, Start Growing: How Strategic Sales Assessments Drive Real Revenue

Stop Guessing, Start Growing: How Strategic Sales Assessments Drive Real Revenue

By Sean O'Shaughnessey

You’ll eventually hit a wall if you’re running a sales organization—or wearing multiple hats as founder, CEO, and sales manager. That wall is often invisible until growth stalls, key deals slip through the cracks, or your top salesperson burns out. So, what’s the next move? It’s not more hustle. It’s assessment.

A sales assessment isn’t about checking boxes. It’s about understanding where you are, how you operate, and what’s holding you back. Too many small business leaders assume they’re doing fine because revenue is growing or the team is hitting their quotas. But are you growing at the rate your market allows? Are your sales activities aligned with your long-term goals? Are you building a repeatable system, or are you just getting lucky?

Let’s get tactical. A sales plan isn’t just a revenue target. It’s your go-to-market strategy. It defines your audience, your message, and your motion. It answers why you’re talking to those prospects and what value you’re bringing to them. Without a plan, you’re reacting instead of executing. You’re chasing leads instead of building a pipeline.

If you’re a small company—perhaps under $30 million in revenue—and selling into a national market, chances are your market potential is hundreds of millions, maybe billions. That means your market share is a rounding error, which means there’s room to grow. The question is: Are you operating in a way that allows you to capture that growth?

Even if you’re running lean, you should benchmark your performance against top-tier organizations. Not because you’re competing with them directly, but because they set the standard. What are they doing that you’re not? Where are they more efficient? How do they structure their teams? You’re leaving money on the table if you’re not asking those questions.

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Two Tall Guys Talking Sales – Know Your Numbers: A Sales Leader’s Guide to Growth Metrics – E132

Two Tall Guys Talking Sales – Know Your Numbers: A Sales Leader’s Guide to Growth Metrics – E132

By Sean O'Shaughnessey

As Q2 kicks into full gear, it’s time to pause and reflect—are you ahead, on pace, or falling behind on your sales targets? In this insightful episode of Two Tall Guys Talking Sales, hosts Kevin Lawson and Sean O’Shaughnessey unpack one of a sales leader’s most crucial yet often overlooked responsibilities: knowing your numbers. With equal parts practical advice and strategic vision, this conversation walks you through the foundational metrics every sales leader should track—customer acquisition cost, average transaction size, support staffing ratios, and more. Whether you’re forecasting growth, scaling headcount, or simply trying to stay ahead of the competition, this episode is your playbook for building a metrics-driven sales organization that thrives.

Key Topics Discussed

  • Why “Keeping Score” Matters in Sales Leadership (00:00)
    Kevin kicks off the episode with a strong analogy to competitive sports, emphasizing that tracking performance metrics is non-negotiable for sales leaders aiming to grow.
  • Building a Forward-Looking Sales Metrics Matrix (00:01)
    Kevin walks through how to build a simple but powerful matrix using transaction volume, average deal size, and headcount to visualize both current performance and future goals.
  • Calculating Average Transaction Size and Quota Coverage (00:02)
    Learn how to reverse-engineer quota achievement by dividing sales goals by average transaction size to determine activity targets for your team.
  • Understanding Customer Acquisition Cost (CAC) (00:05)
    Sean breaks down the components of CAC and explains why every sales leader must know this figure to scale sustainably and profitably.
  • Debunking the “Geopolitics Are Killing Sales” Excuse (00:09)
    Sean challenges the notion that global events are valid reasons for missed quotas, reinforcing that internal execution and strategic clarity are what really matter.
  • Aligning Sales Activity with Strategic Growth Goals (00:12)
    Kevin closes the episode with a systems-thinking approach to leadership, showing how small adjustments in metrics, team development, and compensation can drive exponential growth.

Key Quotes

Kevin Lawson: “Keeping score is important. Really important. I’m talking like March Madness. Final game. Important.” (00:00)

Sean O’Shaughnessey: “If it takes you more than 20 minutes to figure out this information, then you need a better bookkeeping system.” (00:06)

Sean O’Shaughnessey: “You need to know what your average deal size is. You need to know how long it takes you to get a customer. Your CRM should be solving that.” (00:07)

Kevin Lawson: “We want to gently steer our company towards our goals. So the thinking about this process is all about knowing your numbers.” (00:12)

A Significant Actionable Item from this Podcast

Build Your Sales Metrics Matrix This Week
Start with your annual revenue goal. Break it down by the number of salespeople, average transaction value, and number of transactions needed per rep per month. Then layer in your customer acquisition cost, support staffing ratios, and expected margin. This matrix becomes your roadmap for scaling intelligently—whether you’re doubling headcount, expanding territory, or just trying to hit a consistent quota.

Episode Summary

In a world of uncertainty, Two Tall Guys Talking Sales reminds us that clarity comes from data. Kevin and Sean deliver a compelling, no-nonsense discussion about how to take control of your revenue engine by genuinely understanding the math behind your sales motion. Whether you’re a CEO, VP of Sales, or just starting to lead a team, this episode offers an essential primer on aligning your operations to your goals. Don’t miss this one—it might be the wake-up call your spreadsheet has been waiting for.

👉 Hit play now to future-proof your sales strategy by learning how to know your numbers like a pro.

Level Up Your Sales Prospecting with Advanced Research Techniques

Level Up Your Sales Prospecting with Advanced Research Techniques

By Sean O'Shaughnessey

A shoutout to Chris Spanier and Episode #85 of the Practical, Actionable Marketing Podcast

Sales prospecting has always been a grind. What if you could cut your research time in half and dramatically improve your outreach results?

In Episode #85 of the Practical, Actionable Marketing podcast, host Chris Spanier delivers a masterclass on how to do just that. Titled “Advanced Prospecting Research Tools,” the episode is packed with time-saving techniques and tools that help sales professionals build sharper prospect profiles faster.

As someone with over four decades in sales and sales management, I believe this kind of tactical insight makes a difference. If you haven’t already, listen to the episode. Then, come back here for a quick breakdown of what Chris covered—plus a few of my thoughts.

Why Prospect Research Matters More Than Ever

In a market saturated with sales messages, relevance is your only competitive advantage. The days of blasting generic emails to massive lists are over. Today, the winners are the ones who personalize their outreach with precision—and that begins with better research.

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Becoming a Trusted Advisor: Solve Problems, Not Just Sell Products

Becoming a Trusted Advisor: Solve Problems, Not Just Sell Products

By Sean O'Shaughnessey

In B2B sales and sales leadership, problem-solving is an art that goes beyond selling a product or service. The secret to becoming a trusted advisor is addressing business problems, not just selling a product. This concept resonates with salespeople, sales managers, and small business CEOs who sell themselves or manage a team of salespeople. 

Sales is not just about pushing a product or closing a deal; it’s about forging relationships, understanding businesses and their unique challenges, and offering solutions to these problems. The role of a trusted advisor is not to sell a product and become a trusted advisor, but rather to become a trusted advisor who can sell a product. 

The reward for earning trusted advisor status is immeasurable. It is fantastic to receive a call from a client asking for advice on solving problems they have never discussed with you. Imagine having relationships that stand the test of time and outlast competition and challenges. 

So, how does one become a trusted advisor and solve problems for clients rather than just selling them a great product? It starts with building a relationship from scratch. When starting with a prospect list or an ideal client profile, the goal is not to find anyone who will respond but to seek opportunities to build meaningful relationships. 

The cornerstone of these relationships is reliability. 

  • Are you always punctual? 
  • Do you cancel at the last minute? 
  • Do you forget to return phone calls? 

These behaviors erode trust. On the other hand, showing up when needed, providing solutions even when they are not directly related to your product or service, and connecting clients to others who can help them are behaviors that build trust. 

Becoming a trusted advisor also involves understanding and curiosity about the client’s business. Do you ask questions about how the prospective company makes and loses money, how it dealt with past challenges like the pandemic, and how it deals with current challenges like rising inflation or supply chain disruption? The aim is to understand the client’s business, challenges, and competitors and offer insights and parallels to other companies. 

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