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Two Tall Guys Talking Sales

What An MBA Didn’t Teach You About Sales

The sales profession is challenging. You need to work hard at it to succeed. You need to learn from the best. You need to improve your skills continuously. If you think you can sell since you are a hit at parties and have a lot of friends, you may soon find that you are a failure as a salesperson. Blunt truth:

because the sales profession is so hard, you have to focus on doing everything in sales very well, or you will be considered a failure.

I call this blog, Skinned Knees because I try to relate all of the learning that I have done over the past 4+ decades (while skinning my knees in the learning process).

I hope that you learn from my mistakes so that your business will grow!

Two Tall Guys Talking Sales – The Hidden Driver of Every Sale: Mike Dowhan Explains How Compelling Events Shape Business Acumen and Sales Strategies – Episode 160

In this episode of Two Tall Guys Talking Sales, hosts Kevin Lawson and Sean O’Shaughnessey welcome Mike Dowhan, founder of Bedrock Sales. Together, they explore one of the most overlooked yet transformative aspects of sales management: the compelling event. Mike brings over two decades of experience helping organizations refine their sales processes, understand buyer motivation, and drive consistent revenue generation. Whether you’re a frontline seller or a sales leader guiding a team, this episode unpacks how identifying and leveraging compelling events can be the difference between chasing deals and closing them confidently.

Key Topics Discussed

  • The Power of the Compelling Event (01:12) – What defines a compelling event and why it’s the “why” behind every great sale.
  • Asking Better Discovery Questions (03:00) – How to uncover the root cause that motivates buyers to act now rather than later.
  • Getting Permission to Go Deep (07:17) – Why earning trust allows salespeople to ask the tough, business-critical questions.
  • Compelling Events vs. Compelling Needs (09:53) – The distinction between recognizing a real deadline versus a vague desire for change.
  • Surfacing the Cost of Inaction (10:38) – How to use timing, impact, and risk to create urgency without manufacturing pressure.

Key Quotes

  • Mike Dowhan (03:49): “What caused you to pick up the phone or take my call today? What’s different today than yesterday? That’s where you find the real reason a buyer is ready to move.”
  • Sean O’Shaughnessey (02:29): “If there’s no compelling event, it becomes very difficult. You’re pushing the boulder uphill, fighting the same battle over and over.”
  • Kevin Lawson (12:00): “Finding permission and tracking back to that event is where we create real value, and avoid the trap of commoditization.”

Additional Resources

A Significant Actionable Item from this Podcast

Start every discovery conversation with one simple question:

“What changed today that made you want to talk to me?”

This question reveals your buyer’s compelling event, the emotional and operational trigger that drives their need to act. Understanding that moment transforms your sales strategy from reactive to consultative. Use it to align your messaging, reinforce your value-selling approach, and accelerate revenue growth.

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Two Tall Guys Talking Sales – Sales Management Masterclass: Paul Rafferty’s Proven Framework for Smarter Deal Reviews and Revenue Generation – Episode 159

Welcome back to Two Tall Guys Talking Sales with hosts Kevin Lawson and Sean O’Shaughnessey. In this dynamic episode, the Tall Guys welcome Paul Rafferty from Sales Xceleration to explore the art and science of sales coaching, deal qualification, and the importance of building sales acumen. Paul brings decades of experience in sales management, value selling, and revenue generation, offering a practical framework for sales leaders who want to coach their teams more effectively and for reps who want to stop chasing the wrong deals.

Discover how to transform your team’s approach to sales processes—from opportunity scoring to understanding a buyer’s “pain chain.” This conversation is packed with actionable insights that blend sales strategy, business acumen, and real-world stories you can immediately apply to your own selling environment.

Key Topics Discussed

  • 03:00 — Building a Deal Coaching Framework:
    Paul introduces his 100-point scorecard system that evaluates the Ideal Prospect Profile, the Pain Chain, and Commitment to Decision. This framework transforms deal reviews into powerful coaching sessions rather than mere forecast updates.
  • 05:10 — The “Pain Chain” and Sales Philosophy:
    Sean and Paul discuss how understanding buyer pain isn’t optional—it’s foundational to value selling. Without real pain, there’s no compelling reason for your buyer to act.
  • 06:45 — From Friendly to Effective Salesperson:
    Paul and Sean discuss how friendliness can open doors, but it’s teaching and insight that ultimately win deals. Sales success comes from challenging your prospects and helping them think differently.
  • 08:00 — Why Deals Get Stuck:
    Kevin and Paul explore how most stalled deals trace back to weak discovery. Coaching your team to go deeper early in the sales process prevents gridlock later.
  • 10:30 — The Currency of Knowledge:
    Paul explains that in modern selling, gifts and lunches no longer move the needle—information does. Great salespeople earn influence by being teachers, not vendors.

Key Quotes

  • Paul Rafferty (03:50):
    “It’s not what you do—it’s what they do. The scorecard helps you coach reps to spend time where there’s real buying intent, not just big logos.”
  • Sean O’Shaughnessey (05:43):
    “Salespeople need to understand the theory of sales. Without knowing the frameworks—like the pain chain or solution selling—you’re just saying, ‘I’m a nice guy, buy from me.’”
  • Kevin Lawson (08:38):
    “Most deals go to die in the discovery phase. Coaching means rewinding the tape and helping reps fix what wasn’t done early enough.”
  • Paul Rafferty (12:51):
    “Your currency is information—help your buyer look smart, get promoted, and win internally. That’s real value selling.”

Additional Resources

  • Paul Rafferty
    • prafferty@salesxceleration.com 
    • https://www.linkedin.com/in/pauljrafferty/
  • Books referenced:
    • Solution Selling by Michael Bosworth – https://a.co/d/hHtYSiX
    • The Challenger Sale by Matthew Dixon & Brent Adamson – https://a.co/d/2kJsbDU
    • Strategic Selling by Robert Miller & Stephen Heiman – https://a.co/d/icPcC6H

A Significant Actionable Item from this Podcast

Implement a Deal Coaching Scorecard.
Instead of subjective forecasting (“This deal is 70% likely to close”), create an objective scoring model based on:

  1. Ideal Prospect Fit (25 pts) – Does this prospect align with your best customer profile?
  2. Pain Chain (25 pts) – Have they admitted to a real, solvable pain?
  3. Commitment to Decision (50 pts) – Have they engaged decision-makers and committed to next steps?

Use this tool in your next pipeline review. It will sharpen your sales management coaching, improve revenue forecasting, and elevate your team’s overall sales success. If you want more information about this scorecard, reach out to Paul Rafferty at his address above.

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Two Tall Guys Talking Sales – What Got You Here Won’t Get You There: How Sales Leaders Master the Pivot for Revenue Growth – Episode 158

In this episode, hosts Kevin Lawson and Sean O’Shaughnessey tackle one of the most fundamental truths in business and sales leadership: change is inevitable. Whether you’re managing a sales team, scaling from $5M to $50M, or repositioning your company for new markets, your success depends on your ability to pivot,  intelligently, decisively, and confidently. Sean and Kevin unpack the concept of organizational pivots through real-world examples, from manufacturing supply challenges to Domino’s Pizza’s legendary turnaround, and offer practical advice for how sales leaders can prepare their teams to thrive through transformation.

Key Topics Discussed

  • The Only Constant Is Change (00:16) — Why modern business demands leaders who can adapt and guide teams through shifting markets.
  • The Power of the Pivot (02:52) — Kevin explains what a pivot really means and how small, consistent course corrections can transform outcomes.
  • Real-World Example: Domino’s Pizza Reinvention (06:10) — A masterclass in transparency and messaging that rebuilt a brand from the ground up.
  • Training as the Foundation of Change (09:21) — Sean breaks down how strategic training helps sales teams pivot effectively into new markets or industries.
  • Peer Learning and the Role of Community (12:33) — The importance of collaboration, conversation, and communities like the B2B Sales Lab for accelerating sales success.

Key Quotes

  • “As CEOs and sales leaders, we have to lead through change. What got us here is not going to get us there.”
    — Sean O’Shaughnessey (01:34)
  • “Sometimes people don’t need a 180-degree pivot. They just need to be repointed — one degree of change over time can take you somewhere entirely new.”
    — Kevin Lawson (04:42)
  • “The first part of making a pivot is planting your foot — and that’s training. You can’t change direction until your team knows how.”
    — Sean O’Shaughnessey (11:22)

Additional Resources

  • Book Mentioned: Who Moved My Cheese? by Spencer Johnson — A timeless read on navigating change in business and life. https://a.co/d/cCEXuwA
  • Community Resource: B2B Sales Lab — A peer-driven community for B2B sales professionals and leaders to exchange ideas, test messaging, and sharpen their skills. www.b2b-sales-lab.com

A Significant Actionable Item from this Podcast

Before the day ends, write down five things you could do to change the trajectory of your sales growth or turnaround.
Then, rank them:

  • Which are big strategic plays?
  • Which are medium-term moves?
  • Which are quick wins you could execute immediately? Assign probability, effort, and impact to each, then commit to one action this week. Leadership begins with deliberate motion, not massive overhauls.
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Two Tall Guys Talking Sales – The First 90 Days as a Sales Leader: Proven Strategies for Sales Management Success – Episode 157

When a company hires or promotes its first sales manager, expectations run high, but clarity can be low. In this episode of Two Tall Guys Talking Sales, hosts Sean O’Shaughnessey and Kevin Lawson unpack what the first 90 days should look like for a new sales leader. Whether you’re a CEO onboarding a new manager or that manager stepping into the role themselves, this discussion provides practical guidance on setting realistic expectations, building trust, and establishing the foundation for long-term sales success and revenue growth.

Key Topics Discussed

  • Setting Realistic Expectations as an Owner (02:00)
    Kevin explores how CEOs should frame success during the first 90 days, emphasizing the importance of patience, trust-building, and understanding that sales management transformation takes time.
  • Avoiding the “Fix This First” Trap (06:30)
    Sean cautions business owners against dumping old personnel problems on new leaders, explaining why cleaning up someone else’s mess undermines early business acumen and trust.
  • Building Relationships and Learning the Business (08:30)
    Sean shares tactical advice for new sales managers: conduct one-on-ones, ride along with reps, and build rapport across departments, marketing, operations, and finance, to master internal sales processes and interdepartmental alignment.
  • Understanding Internal and External Tools (11:12)
    Kevin discusses discovering hidden tools and levers, people, systems, vendor programs, or product configurations that can immediately improve team performance and value-selling opportunities.
  • Repackaging and Aligning Offers to the Market (12:30)
    The hosts outline how sales leaders can rethink product structures and messaging to better serve customer needs, thereby improving revenue management and profitability.

Key Quotes

  • “Trust is a currency. It has to be earned by customers, by salespeople, by peers, and you can’t buy it in the first 30 days.”,  Kevin Lawson (03:00)
  • “Don’t make your new sales leader the bad guy. If there’s a tough personnel decision, handle it before they start.”,  Sean O’Shaughnessey (07:00)
  • “Learn your company inside and out. If you don’t know who runs manufacturing or how the supply chain works, you can’t lead your salespeople effectively.”,  Sean O’Shaughnessey (10:00)
  • “You might have 20 products, but 100 possible solutions. The smart leader finds ways to repackage and sell in ways the customer actually values.”,  Kevin Lawson (13:00)

Additional Resources

  • Episodes on sales onboarding, marketing alignment, and ideal customer profiling (ICP) were referenced throughout the conversation.
  • Explore more insights and tools for sales leaders at b2b-sales-lab.com.

A Significant Actionable Item from this Podcast

Create a 90-Day Integration Plan.
If you’re a new sales manager, spend your first month listening and learning. Conduct one-on-ones with every salesperson, schedule cross-department meetings, and document what each function needs from sales. In the second month, identify process gaps and start designing improvements. By the third month, implement one or two visible wins, such as improving forecasting accuracy or clarifying sales messaging, to demonstrate value and build momentum.

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Two Tall Guys Talking Sales – How Sales and Marketing Partnerships Drive Lead Generation and Sales Success – Episode 155

As the year draws to a close, sales leaders and professionals are already looking ahead to the next year. In this episode of Two Tall Guys Talking Sales, hosts Sean O’Shaughnessey and Kevin Lawson dig into the perennial challenge of lead generation, the importance of collaborating with marketing, and why proactive planning is essential for sales success. From refining your messaging to building thought leadership, this conversation is packed with strategies to help you drive revenue generation and sharpen your sales processes.

Key Topics Discussed

  • Why Salespeople Always Say “I Need More Leads” (01:00)
  • The Importance of Partnering with Marketing for Effective Sales Strategies (03:40)
  • Going Beyond Marketing—Referrals, Networking, and Thought Leadership (05:07)
  • Leveraging LinkedIn and Personal Branding to Generate Leads (06:25)
  • The Three Things Every Salesperson Really Sells (09:00)
  • Planning with Intention: Mapping the Next 12 Months for Sales Success (12:57)

Key Quotes

  • Sean O’Shaughnessey (01:48): “You as a salesperson… it’s your job to sit with the marketing people you have and map out the next 12 months of how to get better leads and cover your territory more effectively.”
  • Kevin Lawson (03:40): “Go down the hallway, knock on the door and say, here’s what I’m working on, what are you working on, and how can I help? Be a resource, be a partner to marketing.”
  • Sean O’Shaughnessey (09:24): “There are three things you sell: your product, your company, and—most importantly—you.”
  • Kevin Lawson (13:16): “If you’re only giving 50% effort to your professional practice, you can’t expect championship-level results.”

Additional Resources

  • B2B Sales Lab Community – A peer group for sales professionals to exchange best practices and strengthen their sales management and revenue generation capabilities. Go to https://b2b-sales-lab.com/

A Significant Actionable Item from this Podcast

Schedule a working session with your marketing team this week. Map out the next 12 months of sales and marketing activities, focusing on how you’ll generate leads, build messaging, and increase visibility in your target accounts. Even if it starts with a simple spreadsheet, writing down the plan creates accountability and aligns sales strategies with marketing efforts.

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Two Tall Guys Talking Sales – How to Define Sales Territories for Maximum Revenue Generation – Episode 154

Sales leaders and sales professionals: are your territories setting you up for sales success or holding your team back? 

In this episode, hosts Kevin Lawson and Sean O’Shaughnessey tackle the critical role of defining territories, commission plans, and account strategies. From building fair but effective territories to creating actionable plans that drive revenue generation, this conversation blends sales management insight with practical sales strategies to help you win more consistently and grow with intention.

Key Topics Discussed

  • Defining Territories with Purpose (00:23) – Why intentional design matters more than “spray and pray” selling.
  • Fairness vs. Evenness in Territories (01:27) – Sean explains why territories don’t need to be identical, but they must be logical and fair to prevent turnover.
  • How Salespeople Should Approach New Territories (04:53) – Kevin outlines the mindset and business acumen required to succeed under a new commission plan.
  • Planning Ahead for Sales Success (08:21) – Sean breaks down how early planning impacts Q1 results, revenue management, and long-term sales processes.
  • The Power of Written Territory and Account Plans (12:23) – Kevin explains how documenting your strategies in a CRM enhances value selling and accountability.

Key Quotes

  • Sean O’Shaughnessey (01:10): “When you’re driving down the road, you’re not driving with the mirrors—you’re driving with the windshield. Defining your territory is incredibly important to know where you’re going.”
  • Kevin Lawson (06:00): “A new commission plan is not an indictment of past performance; it’s your executives telling you how and where they want the company to grow.”
  • Kevin Lawson (12:42): “When a plan is written, it’s real. You win more often when your goals and account strategies are captured, documented, and revisited.”

A Significant Actionable Item from this Podcast

Write down your territory and account growth plan before the new year begins. Identify 20 accounts to expand, document the cast of characters (champions, blockers, decision-makers), and map a path to increase revenue generation. Then, enter this plan into your CRM to hold yourself accountable and align with your company’s sales strategies.

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Two Tall Guys Talking Sales – From Comp Plans to Territory Alignment: Sales Strategies Every Leader Needs for Revenue Generation – Episode 153

As the year draws to a close, sales leaders and business owners face a critical challenge: preparing for growth in the year ahead. In this episode of Two Tall Guys Talking Sales, hosts Kevin Lawson and Sean O’Shaughnessey dive deep into sales management strategies that set the stage for long-term sales success. From refining compensation plans and aligning territories to planning product lifecycles and avoiding the dreaded “hockey stick” growth trap, this conversation is packed with insights on business acumen, value selling, and revenue generation strategies that every sales leader should master.

Key Topics Discussed

  • 01:00 – Planning Beyond This Year: Why sales leaders need to start preparing now for next year’s revenue generation and sales processes.
  • 02:11 – Building Smarter Compensation Plans: Evaluating and refining comp structures to drive sales success and attract top talent.
  • 03:13 – Product Lifecycle & AI Readiness: How shifts in markets and technology demand updates to your offerings and messaging.
  • 05:00 – Departmental Alignment for Growth: Understanding how revenue management and sales growth affect every department in your business.
  • 07:12 – Right People, Right Roles: Assessing whether your sales team is positioned for success in the next stage of your growth plan.
  • 11:20 – Avoiding the “Hockey Stick” Trap: Why spreading growth evenly across years is a better long-term sales strategy.

Key Quotes

  • Sean O’Shaughnessey (01:07): “If I asked you to write out your three-year plan, next year already knocks off the first year. Are you one-third of the way there, or do you need to rethink your path?”
  • Kevin Lawson (02:33): “Be planning ahead. Compensation plans aren’t a set-and-forget item—you need to revisit them every year to make sure they’re delivering the right results.”
  • Sean O’Shaughnessey (07:59): “Do I have the right people in the right place in my sales organization for next year? Not every salesperson has to leave, but maybe their role needs to evolve.”
  • Kevin Lawson (11:38): “You don’t want that third year of your plan to be a hockey stick. Don’t put yourself in a position where you suddenly need 40% growth in one year to hit your goals.”

Additional Resources

  • B2B Sales Lab: A peer community for sales leaders and professionals to sharpen strategies, exchange best practices, and get actionable feedback.
  • EOS Framework: For leaders who want to align messaging, sales strategies, and revenue management with long-term goals.

A Significant Actionable Item from this Podcast

Review and finalize your sales compensation plans by December 1st. This gives your team enough time to digest changes, ask questions, and align their sales strategies before the new year begins. Waiting until January leaves your salespeople unprepared, which can delay revenue generation and momentum.

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Two Tall Guys Talking Sales – How Sales Leaders Use CRMs to Align Sales Processes, Value Selling, and Revenue Management – Episode 152

In this episode of Two Tall Guys Talking Sales, hosts Kevin Lawson and Sean O’Shaughnessey build on last week’s discussion of qualification methodologies and take the conversation further—into how these frameworks should live inside your CRM. From aligning sales processes with the buyer’s journey to enforcing accountability at each stage, this conversation offers practical strategies that every sales leader and salesperson can implement. Expect a deep dive into sales management, revenue generation, sales processes, and… Two Tall Guys Talking Sales – How Sales Leaders Use CRMs to Align Sales Processes, Value Selling, and Revenue Management – Episode 152

Two Tall Guys Talking Sales – Why Consistent Sales Strategies Win: Forecasting, Messaging, and Revenue Management – Episode 151

In this episode of Two Tall Guys Talking Sales, hosts Kevin Lawson and Sean O’Shaughnessey delve into the crucial role of deal qualification in driving sales success. From simple frameworks like BANT to advanced methodologies such as MEDDIC and MEDDPICCC, Kevin and Sean explain how consistent sales processes, value selling, and business acumen can sharpen forecasting, strengthen messaging, and ultimately accelerate revenue generation. Whether you’re managing a sales team or selling solo, this discussion will… Two Tall Guys Talking Sales – Why Consistent Sales Strategies Win: Forecasting, Messaging, and Revenue Management – Episode 151

Two Tall Guys Talking Sales – Sales Strategies That Outperform AI Tools: ICP, Value Selling, and Revenue Management – Episode 150

In today’s fast-changing sales landscape, everyone is talking about AI, automation, and digital tools, but are these the keys to sales success? In this episode of Two Tall Guys Talking Sales, hosts Kevin Lawson and Sean O’Shaughnessey explore why documenting your sales processes, defining your ideal client profile (ICP), and sharpening your value selling approach must come before chasing shiny new technologies. Whether you’re leading a sales team or building revenue generation strategies as a… Two Tall Guys Talking Sales – Sales Strategies That Outperform AI Tools: ICP, Value Selling, and Revenue Management – Episode 150