organizational growth

In this episode of Two Tall Guys Talking Sales, hosts Kevin Lawson and Sean O’Shaughnessey sit down with John Spencer, a seasoned sales leader and founder of Clear Direction Sales Development. Together, they explore the crucial differences between growth and scale, particularly in organizations leaning too heavily on a superstar seller. If you’re leading a sales organization that relies on one standout performer—or trying to replicate success across your sales team—this is a must-listen conversation packed with real-world examples and hard-earned wisdom. The trio unpacks why scalable sales processes and strong business acumen matter far more than a single heroic quota-crusher and how to transform your entire team into a consistent revenue-generation engine.

Key Topics Discussed

[00:01:20] The difference between growth and scale—and why one without the other creates risk
[00:02:30] How over-reliance on a “super seller” can mask weak sales infrastructure
[00:04:00] Why building a team of B players can be the key to sales success and organizational growth
[00:06:00] Why your people strategy outweighs even the best sales tech or product
[00:09:00] How aligning your company around Ideal Customer Profiles (ICPs) and value selling accelerates performance
[00:11:00] Inspiring second-tier sellers to level up—and the systems that make that possible

Key Quotes

Kevin Lawson [00:00:00]: “What do you do when you’ve got a standout salesperson and you’re trying to scale? Today’s the day to take notes and learn from best practices—and avoid the ones that put you in a bind.”
John Spencer [00:01:50]: “Growth is often just out-hustling the competition. Scale is when your sales management creates repeatable success across the team.”
Sean O’Shaughnessey [00:04:00]: “You can’t build a company on nothing but A players. You need B players who can perform with strong sales processes—that’s how you truly scale.”
John Spencer [00:07:24]: “When one salesperson becomes the center of gravity, the whole company starts working for them. That doesn’t scale.”
John Spencer [00:10:08]: “Let’s align the organization to help the salesperson like they’re a mini-CEO. That’s how we build momentum and create sustainable revenue management.”

Additional Resources

Connect with John Spencer: LinkedIn Profile – John Spencer (https://www.linkedin.com/in/johnspencerinc/)
Company: Clear Direction Sales Development
Contact: Direct phone, email, and Calendly available on John’s LinkedIn

A Significant Actionable Item from this Podcast

Stop idolizing your top seller—start systematizing their success.
Identify what makes your A player successful, then document and distribute that knowledge across your sales organization. Build a repeatable process that supports B players in becoming high performers. Use Ideal Customer Profiles (ICPs), clear value propositions, and structured onboarding to reduce variance and elevate the middle 60% of your team.

Why You Should Listen to This Episode

If your company is stuck in a “hero model” of selling—where success depends on a single superstar—this episode will open your eyes to what’s truly holding your sales strategy back. With practical insights on aligning your team, refining your messaging, and unlocking scalable revenue generation, John Spencer joins Kevin and Sean in a candid conversation that blends military-grade leadership with sales precision. Whether you’re a CEO, VP of Sales, or just trying to level up your sales team, this episode is your blueprint for transitioning from hustle-based growth to process-driven scale. Don’t miss it—press play and rethink what it means to grow.

The challenge of aligning the right people with the right organizational roles is paramount. As sales leaders and CEOs of small companies, understanding the intricacies of building and maintaining a proficient sales team is crucial for driving growth and achieving success.

The concept of having the “right people in the right seats” is not just a matter of recruitment but an ongoing process of evaluation, development, and strategic alignment. It’s essential to recognize that the adequacy of a sales team is not solely dependent on individual capabilities but also on how these individuals fit within the broader sales strategy and organizational culture.

Compensation plans, customer relationship management (CRM) systems, and the overarching sales infrastructure play significant roles in enabling sales teams to perform at their best. However, the foundation of a high-performing sales team lies in the continuous investment in people. This involves identifying talent and fostering an environment that promotes learning, growth, and adaptation.

Training and development are often overlooked aspects of sales management. Surprisingly, a significant number of sales professionals and leaders go years without receiving formal training. This gap in skill development can lead to stagnation and inefficiency. Therefore, organizations must prioritize ongoing education and training to keep their sales teams agile and competitive.

Furthermore, it is critical that individual roles align with the organization’s goals. This may involve reevaluating existing roles, responsibilities, and processes to ensure they contribute effectively to the sales strategy. Sometimes, the solution does not lie in hiring new talent but in optimizing the current team’s structure and roles to leverage their strengths more effectively.

Performance improvement plans (PIPs) and the concept of “top-grading” the sales team highlight the importance of accountability and continuous improvement. While PIPs can be a tool for addressing performance issues, they should not be the first resort. Instead, leaders should focus on setting clear expectations, providing the necessary resources and support, and fostering a culture of excellence.

Sometimes, the issue may not be with the sales personnel but with the systems, processes, or even the leadership approach. Before making drastic decisions, such as replacing team members, it’s worth taking a step back to assess whether the organization provides the right environment, tools, and guidance for the team to succeed.

Ultimately, building and managing an effective sales team is an intricate process that requires a balanced approach. It involves ensuring that you have the right people in place and that these individuals are equipped, motivated, and aligned with the organization’s goals. As sales leaders and managers, it’s essential to identify and address gaps, foster a culture of continuous learning and improvement, and strategically align team structures and processes to drive sales performance.

For salespeople, sales managers, and CEOs of small companies, understanding these dynamics and adopting a holistic approach to sales management can significantly enhance their team’s effectiveness and their organization’s ability to achieve its sales objectives.

Actionable items that you can do today

Evaluate Your Team’s Composition: Take a moment to assess the current structure of your sales team. Identify whether each member is in the role that best suits their skills and where they can contribute the most to the team’s objectives. This could involve one-on-one discussions to understand their goals, strengths, and areas for improvement.
Initiate a Training Needs Analysis: Conduct a thorough training needs analysis to identify gaps in skills and knowledge within your sales team. This should cover everything from product knowledge to sales techniques and the use of CRM systems. Based on this analysis, outline a tailored training program to address these gaps and elevate your team’s performance.
Review and Adjust Compensation Plans: Analyze your current compensation and incentive structures to ensure they align with your organizational goals and sales targets. Adjustments might be necessary to better motivate your team and encourage the behaviors and outcomes you wish to see. This could mean introducing new performance bonuses, adjusting commission rates, or implementing non-monetary rewards that drive motivation.
Implement a Sales Enablement Strategy: Start developing or refining your sales enablement strategy to ensure your sales team has the tools, resources, and content they need to succeed. This could involve updating sales playbooks, improving CRM processes, or investing in new sales enablement technology. The goal is to make it easier for your sales team to sell effectively and efficiently.