Two Tall Guys Talking Sales – Steve Caton Shares When to Sell, When to Coach, and When to Hire: Strategic Sales Management That Drives Growth – Episode 137

Two Tall Guys Talking Sales – Steve Caton Shares When to Sell, When to Coach, and When to Hire: Strategic Sales Management That Drives Growth – Episode 137

In this powerful episode of Two Tall Guys Talking Sales, Kevin Lawson and Sean O’Shaughnessey are joined once again by Steve Caton, CEO of Altezza Solutions, for a thought-provoking conversation that zeroes in on one of the toughest decisions in sales leadership: when to sell, when to coach, and when to hire. Whether you’re a business owner, VP of Sales, or a player-coach juggling a quota and a team, this episode brings clarity to the strategic inflection point where growth hinges on letting go. With frank discussion, lived experience, and tactical advice, Kevin, Sean, and Steve guide you through the complex terrain of sales management, revenue generation, and scaling your team without sacrificing results.

Key Topics Discussed:

  • [00:01:58] The pros and cons of player-coach sales roles, and why this model often fails without intentional strategy
  • [00:05:34] How to create a psychologically safe sales environment where learning from failure drives sales success
  • [00:07:11] Steve Caton’s personal transition from sales operator to CEO—and how it triggered exponential business growth
  • [00:09:20] The difference between hiring to “swim faster” and hiring to scale—how business acumen guides the decision
  • [00:13:00] Real-world use cases for fractional sales roles to test new markets or offerings without disrupting core revenue streams

Key Quotes:

  • Kevin Lawson [00:04:57]: “Sometimes you have to let people fail. You can’t push them into failure, but you do have to give them the room to learn. The challenge is, as a leader, you’re still accountable for that failure.”
  • Sean O’Shaughnessey [00:04:01]: “It’s much easier to do one thing well. Let great salespeople sell and great managers manage—don’t dilute either role.”
  • Steve Caton [00:08:30]: “I made the decision to stop selling before I could afford it. Why? Because I knew the payoff would be big. Sometimes, you just have to invest in your business to grow.”
  • Kevin Lawson [00:11:34]: “A sales process with control metrics, plus intentional feedback loops, informs exactly how and where your business should grow.”

Additional Resources:

A Significant Actionable Item from this Podcast:

Reevaluate your team structure and decide: are you scaling or surviving?
If you’re a business owner or sales leader wearing multiple hats, it’s time to assess whether you’re enabling growth or capping it. Consider where your time is most valuable—rainmaking, coaching, or closing—and invest in building the right team around you. Start with fractional or part-time hires to test new roles or markets, then double down when the data supports it.

Closing Summary:

This episode cuts through the noise around sales team building with a refreshing mix of vulnerability, experience, and strategic depth. Whether you’re weighing your first sales hire or deciding to step out of the player-coach role, Two Tall Guys Talking Sales delivers real-world sales strategies that help you align your messaging, sales processes, and revenue management decisions with long-term growth. Don’t miss this one—it’s 15 minutes of business-building insight that could change the trajectory of your sales organization. Hit play now and discover how letting go might be the smartest way to grow.

Two Tall Guys Talking Sales – Scaling Smarter: Building Sales Teams with Steve Caton – Episode 136

Two Tall Guys Talking Sales – Scaling Smarter: Building Sales Teams with Steve Caton – Episode 136

What does it take to scale a sales organization in today’s unpredictable business environment? In this dynamic episode of Two Tall Guys Talking Sales, hosts Sean O’Shaughnessey and Kevin Lawson welcome back Steve Caton, CEO of Altezza Solutions, to unpack the nuances of scaling sales teams, especially through the power of fractional sales professionals. Together, they explore the critical role that sales processes, sales management, and business acumen play in enabling organizations to grow without overspending or compromising performance. Whether you’re navigating the “zero to one” phase or planning your expansion from one rep to five, this episode offers a roadmap for smart, sustainable revenue generation.

Key Topics Discussed

  • Zero to One vs. One to One Hundred: Two Models for Scaling Sales Teams (00:01:14)
    Kevin and Steve outline the difference between launching your first rep and accelerating team expansion, with a focus on structured growth.
  • Fractional Salespeople as a Low-Risk Growth Strategy (00:02:45)
    Steve explains how the fractional model supports learning, experimentation, and ROI without overcommitting resources too early.
  • Determining the Right Time to Expand Territories or Add Headcount (00:04:10)
    The team discusses key signals—like activity level, lead flow, and deal volume—that indicate when it’s time to grow.
  • Using Leading Indicators vs. Lagging Indicators in Sales Management (00:06:16)
    Steve shares the importance of measuring inputs (calls, meetings, proposals) over outputs (closed deals) to ensure predictable scale.
  • The Power of Process-Driven Selling for Sales Success (00:13:08)
    Sean and Steve emphasize why experienced sales pros rely on systems, not improvisation, and why process must precede people.

Key Quotes

  • Kevin Lawson (00:01:34):
    “Think hockey stick versus gradual—zero to one is about getting that first good hire. That’s when you unlock real scale potential.”
  • Steve Caton (00:02:45):
    “Start small, see what works, then expand. That’s the foundation of scalable revenue—and the fractional model makes that possible without spending a crazy amount of money.”
  • Sean O’Shaughnessey (00:08:00):
    “Sales is about finding the customer that is going to buy—that’s not just a marketing thing, that’s a sales thing.”
  • Steve Caton (00:13:08):
    “Process comes before people. If there’s no process, your reps will build one—and that distracts them from actually selling.”

Additional Resources

A Significant Actionable Item from this Podcast

Use leading indicators—not just closed deals—to decide when it’s time to grow your sales team. Many companies scale reactively, hiring after success arrives. But Steve Caton challenges leaders to evaluate the activity level of their reps—calls made, meetings scheduled, deals created—to make data-driven decisions before hitting a bottleneck. If your top performer is maxing out their productive hours, it’s time to split territories, not overload. Review your leading indicators this week and see where your next growth step should begin.

Why You Should Listen

This episode is a must-listen for founders, CEOs, and sales leaders trying to build smarter, not just bigger. With deep insight into the value of fractional sales professionals, the importance of sales strategies, and how to use data for effective revenue management, Steve Caton offers a practical, grounded view of what scalable sales success looks like. If you’re serious about growing your team without growing your headaches, hit play and take notes.

Stop Guessing. Start Assessing: The First Step Toward Sales Growth

Stop Guessing. Start Assessing: The First Step Toward Sales Growth

Are you feeling stuck in your sales organization? You’re not alone. Many founders, CEOs, and sales leaders eventually hit an invisible wall—a growth plateau. Key deals slip away. Your top salesperson, who carries far too much weight, starts to burn out.

In these moments, the instinct is often to push harder. But what’s needed isn’t more hustle. It’s clarity. And clarity starts with a strategic sales assessment.

What a Sales Assessment Means

Too often, leaders see assessments as formalities—checklists that confirm what they already believe. That’s a mistake. An accurate sales assessment is diagnostic. It reveals what’s working, what’s broken, and what’s missing.

Revenue growth doesn’t always mean you’re on the right path. Many companies are growing despite misalignment, not because of strategic execution. Are your sales activities aligned with your market opportunity? Are you pursuing the right prospects with the right message? Or are you just getting lucky?

Read the rest of the article…
John Spencer Explains Scaling Sales Teams- Turning A-Player Performance into Company-Wide Success

John Spencer Explains Scaling Sales Teams- Turning A-Player Performance into Company-Wide Success

In this episode of Two Tall Guys Talking Sales, hosts Kevin Lawson and Sean O’Shaughnessey sit down with John Spencer, a seasoned sales leader and founder of Clear Direction Sales Development. Together, they explore the crucial differences between growth and scale, particularly in organizations leaning too heavily on a superstar seller. If you’re leading a sales organization that relies on one standout performer—or trying to replicate success across your sales team—this is a must-listen conversation packed with real-world examples and hard-earned wisdom. The trio unpacks why scalable sales processes and strong business acumen matter far more than a single heroic quota-crusher and how to transform your entire team into a consistent revenue-generation engine.

Key Topics Discussed

  • [00:01:20] The difference between growth and scale—and why one without the other creates risk
  • [00:02:30] How over-reliance on a “super seller” can mask weak sales infrastructure
  • [00:04:00] Why building a team of B players can be the key to sales success and organizational growth
  • [00:06:00] Why your people strategy outweighs even the best sales tech or product
  • [00:09:00] How aligning your company around Ideal Customer Profiles (ICPs) and value selling accelerates performance
  • [00:11:00] Inspiring second-tier sellers to level up—and the systems that make that possible

Key Quotes

  • Kevin Lawson [00:00:00]: “What do you do when you’ve got a standout salesperson and you’re trying to scale? Today’s the day to take notes and learn from best practices—and avoid the ones that put you in a bind.”
  • John Spencer [00:01:50]: “Growth is often just out-hustling the competition. Scale is when your sales management creates repeatable success across the team.”
  • Sean O’Shaughnessey [00:04:00]: “You can’t build a company on nothing but A players. You need B players who can perform with strong sales processes—that’s how you truly scale.”
  • John Spencer [00:07:24]: “When one salesperson becomes the center of gravity, the whole company starts working for them. That doesn’t scale.”
  • John Spencer [00:10:08]: “Let’s align the organization to help the salesperson like they’re a mini-CEO. That’s how we build momentum and create sustainable revenue management.”

Additional Resources

  • Connect with John Spencer: LinkedIn Profile – John Spencer (https://www.linkedin.com/in/johnspencerinc/)
  • Company: Clear Direction Sales Development
  • Contact: Direct phone, email, and Calendly available on John’s LinkedIn

A Significant Actionable Item from this Podcast

Stop idolizing your top seller—start systematizing their success.
Identify what makes your A player successful, then document and distribute that knowledge across your sales organization. Build a repeatable process that supports B players in becoming high performers. Use Ideal Customer Profiles (ICPs), clear value propositions, and structured onboarding to reduce variance and elevate the middle 60% of your team.

Why You Should Listen to This Episode

If your company is stuck in a “hero model” of selling—where success depends on a single superstar—this episode will open your eyes to what’s truly holding your sales strategy back. With practical insights on aligning your team, refining your messaging, and unlocking scalable revenue generation, John Spencer joins Kevin and Sean in a candid conversation that blends military-grade leadership with sales precision. Whether you’re a CEO, VP of Sales, or just trying to level up your sales team, this episode is your blueprint for transitioning from hustle-based growth to process-driven scale. Don’t miss it—press play and rethink what it means to grow.

Stop Guessing, Start Growing: How Strategic Sales Assessments Drive Real Revenue

Stop Guessing, Start Growing: How Strategic Sales Assessments Drive Real Revenue

You’ll eventually hit a wall if you’re running a sales organization—or wearing multiple hats as founder, CEO, and sales manager. That wall is often invisible until growth stalls, key deals slip through the cracks, or your top salesperson burns out. So, what’s the next move? It’s not more hustle. It’s assessment.

A sales assessment isn’t about checking boxes. It’s about understanding where you are, how you operate, and what’s holding you back. Too many small business leaders assume they’re doing fine because revenue is growing or the team is hitting their quotas. But are you growing at the rate your market allows? Are your sales activities aligned with your long-term goals? Are you building a repeatable system, or are you just getting lucky?

Let’s get tactical. A sales plan isn’t just a revenue target. It’s your go-to-market strategy. It defines your audience, your message, and your motion. It answers why you’re talking to those prospects and what value you’re bringing to them. Without a plan, you’re reacting instead of executing. You’re chasing leads instead of building a pipeline.

If you’re a small company—perhaps under $30 million in revenue—and selling into a national market, chances are your market potential is hundreds of millions, maybe billions. That means your market share is a rounding error, which means there’s room to grow. The question is: Are you operating in a way that allows you to capture that growth?

Even if you’re running lean, you should benchmark your performance against top-tier organizations. Not because you’re competing with them directly, but because they set the standard. What are they doing that you’re not? Where are they more efficient? How do they structure their teams? You’re leaving money on the table if you’re not asking those questions.

Read the rest of the article…
Two Tall Guys Talking Sales – Know Your Numbers: A Sales Leader’s Guide to Growth Metrics – E132

Two Tall Guys Talking Sales – Know Your Numbers: A Sales Leader’s Guide to Growth Metrics – E132

As Q2 kicks into full gear, it’s time to pause and reflect—are you ahead, on pace, or falling behind on your sales targets? In this insightful episode of Two Tall Guys Talking Sales, hosts Kevin Lawson and Sean O’Shaughnessey unpack one of a sales leader’s most crucial yet often overlooked responsibilities: knowing your numbers. With equal parts practical advice and strategic vision, this conversation walks you through the foundational metrics every sales leader should track—customer acquisition cost, average transaction size, support staffing ratios, and more. Whether you’re forecasting growth, scaling headcount, or simply trying to stay ahead of the competition, this episode is your playbook for building a metrics-driven sales organization that thrives.

Key Topics Discussed

  • Why “Keeping Score” Matters in Sales Leadership (00:00)
    Kevin kicks off the episode with a strong analogy to competitive sports, emphasizing that tracking performance metrics is non-negotiable for sales leaders aiming to grow.
  • Building a Forward-Looking Sales Metrics Matrix (00:01)
    Kevin walks through how to build a simple but powerful matrix using transaction volume, average deal size, and headcount to visualize both current performance and future goals.
  • Calculating Average Transaction Size and Quota Coverage (00:02)
    Learn how to reverse-engineer quota achievement by dividing sales goals by average transaction size to determine activity targets for your team.
  • Understanding Customer Acquisition Cost (CAC) (00:05)
    Sean breaks down the components of CAC and explains why every sales leader must know this figure to scale sustainably and profitably.
  • Debunking the “Geopolitics Are Killing Sales” Excuse (00:09)
    Sean challenges the notion that global events are valid reasons for missed quotas, reinforcing that internal execution and strategic clarity are what really matter.
  • Aligning Sales Activity with Strategic Growth Goals (00:12)
    Kevin closes the episode with a systems-thinking approach to leadership, showing how small adjustments in metrics, team development, and compensation can drive exponential growth.

Key Quotes

Kevin Lawson: “Keeping score is important. Really important. I’m talking like March Madness. Final game. Important.” (00:00)

Sean O’Shaughnessey: “If it takes you more than 20 minutes to figure out this information, then you need a better bookkeeping system.” (00:06)

Sean O’Shaughnessey: “You need to know what your average deal size is. You need to know how long it takes you to get a customer. Your CRM should be solving that.” (00:07)

Kevin Lawson: “We want to gently steer our company towards our goals. So the thinking about this process is all about knowing your numbers.” (00:12)

A Significant Actionable Item from this Podcast

Build Your Sales Metrics Matrix This Week
Start with your annual revenue goal. Break it down by the number of salespeople, average transaction value, and number of transactions needed per rep per month. Then layer in your customer acquisition cost, support staffing ratios, and expected margin. This matrix becomes your roadmap for scaling intelligently—whether you’re doubling headcount, expanding territory, or just trying to hit a consistent quota.

Episode Summary

In a world of uncertainty, Two Tall Guys Talking Sales reminds us that clarity comes from data. Kevin and Sean deliver a compelling, no-nonsense discussion about how to take control of your revenue engine by genuinely understanding the math behind your sales motion. Whether you’re a CEO, VP of Sales, or just starting to lead a team, this episode offers an essential primer on aligning your operations to your goals. Don’t miss this one—it might be the wake-up call your spreadsheet has been waiting for.

👉 Hit play now to future-proof your sales strategy by learning how to know your numbers like a pro.

Two Tall Guys Talking Sales – Fixing the Funnel – Building a Sales Pipeline That Actually Works – E130

Two Tall Guys Talking Sales – Fixing the Funnel – Building a Sales Pipeline That Actually Works – E130

Welcome back to Two Tall Guys Talking Sales with hosts Kevin Lawson and Sean O’Shaughnessey. In this episode, the tall guys dive deep into one of the most critical yet commonly broken elements in any sales organization: the sales funnel. Whether you’re stuck with a clunky three-stage process that tells you nothing or overwhelmed with 35 micro-stages that only confuse your reps, Sean and Kevin offer a practical guide to rethinking and rebuilding your pipeline strategy. Packed with metaphors (yes, even superhero ones) and sharp analysis, this episode will leave you inspired to take a hard look at your funnel—and finally fix it.


Key Topics Discussed

  • Why Most Sales Funnels Are Broken (00:00:45)
    Sean unpacks the common pitfalls in how companies define and manage their sales stages, including oversimplified or overly complex CRM setups.
  • Defining Sales Stages Based on the Buyer Journey (00:04:30)
    Kevin emphasizes the need to align your sales stages with how buyers actually buy—not how your company wants to sell.
  • How Many Sales Stages Are Too Many? (00:05:00)
    The guys explore the delicate balance between not enough insight and too much complexity in stage design.
  • The Case for Multiple Pipelines (00:08:00)
    When does it make sense to separate budgetary planning pipelines from active sales discussions? Kevin and Sean explain.
  • What a Healthy Funnel Actually Looks Like (00:10:45)
    Sean introduces a visual and mathematical approach to evaluating whether your funnel is properly shaped—and what to do if it’s not.


Key Quotes

“The Avengers became a team, not just Iron Man. You need to have a team. Even superhero salespeople like to have support.”
— Sean O’Shaughnessey (00:02:50)

“Fixing the funnel starts visually. Does it fit well on one sheet of paper? If not, you’ve already lost the battle for clarity.”
— Kevin Lawson (00:04:45)

“Stages should be built to qualify someone into the next step—not just to log an activity. Every transition should represent progress, not busyness.”
— Kevin Lawson (00:06:15)

“If your pipeline doesn’t look like a funnel, then you’re either wasting time or losing deals. Probably both.”
— Sean O’Shaughnessey (00:12:20)

Additional Resources Referenced

A Significant Actionable Item from this Podcast

Audit Your Sales Funnel for Shape and Stage Effectiveness
Pull a report from your CRM and visualize your current pipeline by number of deals and total revenue per stage. Does it actually look like a funnel? If it doesn’t, dig deeper. Are your stages aligned with your buyer’s journey? Are reps stuck in certain stages too long? This snapshot identifies gaps and opportunities for stage redefinition or activity refinement.

Summary

Whether managing a sales team or closing deals yourself, this episode of Two Tall Guys Talking Sales gives you the blueprint to diagnose and repair a misaligned funnel. Sean and Kevin combine humor, hard truths, and highly actionable insights to help you bring structure and sanity back to your sales process. If you’re ready to create a pipeline that reflects how buyers buy—and helps your team win more deals—this episode is a must-listen.

🎧 Listen now and take the first step in fixing your funnel for good.

Building Winning Sales Teams for the Future: Insights for CEOs and Sales Leaders

Building Winning Sales Teams for the Future: Insights for CEOs and Sales Leaders

What are the key moves that CEOs and sales leaders must make to prepare their teams for success in 2025? That’s exactly what we explored in a recent episode of the Art and Science of Complex Sales podcast hosted by Paul Fuller of Membrain. I had the pleasure of joining Kevin Lawson, President of Lighthouse Sales Advisors, for a deep dive into the strategies defining high-performing sales organizations in the year ahead.

You may recognize Kevin’s name. He is my co-host on the Two Tall Guys Talking Sales podcast. Paul titled our interview with him “Building Winning Sales Teams for the Future with Two Tall Guys.”

In the episode, we uncover the real-world tactics and leadership insights that can help CEOs transform their sales organizations—from defining who to sell to building processes that deliver consistent results. If you’re serious about leading a sales team that thrives amid complexity, I highly encourage you to listen to the full conversation. The link is below—don’t miss it.

Driving Growth Through Data-Driven Leadership

One of the central themes we cover is the role of data in guiding strategic decisions. Successful sales leadership today hinges on the ability to read the right signals—metrics like call volumes, deal velocity, customer life cycles, and attrition rates. We discuss how to turn that data into insights that refine your ideal customer profile (ICP) and strengthen your sales and marketing efforts.

We also discuss how a CEO’s dashboard isn’t static. It must evolve based on the business environment, market pressures, and geopolitical events. Paul Fuller helps steer the conversation into practical territory, where we explore how CEOs can stay ahead by making data-informed decisions and leading their teams with clarity and focus.

This podcast episode will be particularly valuable if you’re a CEO or revenue leader aiming to refine your strategic lens. Be sure to check it out through the link below.

Coaching for Consistent Performance Improvement

Data might show you where to focus, but coaching is what gets you results. Kevin and I discuss the importance of coaching for incremental gains—not just pushing reps to hit more numbers but helping them level up in ability and mindset.

We show how leaders can move salespeople from C-level to B-level performers and beyond through relatable sports analogies and real-world examples. These small, steady improvements compound over time and create a team of confident, capable sellers who know how to win.

We also touch on the need for structured coaching frameworks and repeatable systems, which we provide through website resources. If you lead a team that could benefit from a morale, performance, or accountability boost, this is a conversation you won’t want to miss.

Building a Repeatable, Scalable Sales Process

We close the episode with a focused discussion on sales process discipline. By taking a structured approach to evaluating leads—based on product fit, probability, and alignment with your ICP—leaders can drive better forecasting and higher win rates.

Even modest improvements in key areas like win rate, deal size, and sales cycle length can produce exponential results. We explore how a 7% uptick in core metrics could double your revenue. The message is clear: Clarity, consistency, and customer focus are non-negotiable in 2025.

If you’re looking to future-proof your sales organization, this podcast episode is packed with strategies and examples that can serve as a roadmap. Listen to the full episode and learn how to apply these concepts to your company.


Listen to the Full Episode

This is a powerful episode for CEOs, sales leaders, and anyone responsible for building and leading high-performance sales teams. If you’re ready to equip your team for 2025 and beyond, don’t miss this conversation on the Art and Science of Complex Sales podcast.

🎧 Episode: Building Winning Sales Teams for the Future with Two Tall Guys
🎙 Host: Paul Fuller of Membrain
🔗 https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/building-winning-sales-teams-for-the-future-with-two/id1723340327?i=1000684372709

Click the link to listen now—you’ll walk away with actionable ideas to implement immediately.

Unlock Revenue Growth with a Fractional VP of Sales

Unlock Revenue Growth with a Fractional VP of Sales

Are you feeling stuck trying to grow your company’s revenue? Do you find yourself juggling too many responsibilities, struggling with outdated sales methods, or unsure how to take your sales team to the next level? You’re not alone.

Many business owners face these challenges, and at New Sales Expert, we’re here to help.

I’m Sean O’Shaughnessey, founder of New Sales Expert, and we specialize in helping B2B companies accelerate revenue production by implementing proven sales strategies, developing top talent, and creating scalable processes.

In our latest video, I outline how we address some of the most common sales problems business owners encounter, such as:

  • No formal sales process,
  • Inaccurate revenue forecasting,
  • Losing a big customer and not knowing how to recover,
  • Struggling to hire and retain the right salespeople.

As a Fractional Vice President of Sales, we work alongside business owners to provide expert leadership and guidance. Here’s how we do it:

  • Assessing your current sales team and processes.
  • Defining winning strategies with clear metrics for success.
  • Building accurate forecasting tools for long-term planning.
  • Hiring and developing top-performing sales talent.

We operate on a fractional basis, allowing us to bring discipline, accountability, and focus to your sales organization without the full-time cost. Our detailed Scope of Work outlines clear schedules and timelines, ensuring sustained execution and measurable results.

Ready to accelerate your revenue growth? Watch the full video to learn more about how we can help your business thrive.

📌 Contact us today for a free consultation at www.NewSales.Expert.

Let’s build a culture of sales success and drive the growth your business deserves.

Unlocking Sales Success: The Power of KPIs in Sales Processes

Unlocking Sales Success: The Power of KPIs in Sales Processes

Are your sales KPIs helping your team succeed? Many sales leaders focus solely on closed deals. This narrow view misses crucial elements of sustainable sales growth.

The journey matters more than the destination. Sales excellence follows a similar path. Your team’s daily actions and behaviors create the foundation for lasting success.

Effective sales measurement requires a comprehensive view of your team’s activities. Top performers consistently execute vital behaviors that drive results. They prospect strategically, nurture relationships, and expand their presence within existing accounts. These leading indicators paint a clearer picture of future performance than lagging metrics alone.

Your KPI framework must evolve beyond historical analysis. Forward-looking metrics help you spot opportunities and challenges before they impact revenue. What’s happening in your pipeline right now? How are your teams finding new prospects? Which accounts show growth potential?

Experience levels significantly impact appropriate performance measures. New salespeople face different challenges than seasoned veterans. A rookie might need help with fundamental sales behaviors while learning your company’s approach. They need clear operational guidance and structured metrics that reinforce proper execution.

Veteran salespeople bring established skills and proven track records. Their KPIs should emphasize continuous improvement and cultural alignment. How are they advancing their capabilities? What value do they add to the broader sales organization?

Read the rest of the article…