When marketing professional services, the playbook isn’t the same as product sales, and today’s episode dives into exactly why. Sean O’Shaughnessey and Kevin Lawson are joined by returning guest Chris Spanier, CEO of Carpe Diem Consulting Group and host of the Practical Actionable Marketing podcast. This conversation tackles the nuances of sales strategies for service-based businesses, blending value selling with measurable marketing and aligning both functions for stronger revenue generation. If you’re a business owner, consultant, or fractional executive trying to sharpen your sales processes and improve messaging, this episode is a goldmine of practical advice.
🔑 Key Topics Discussed
[02:44] Why traditional product marketing doesn’t work for professional services—and how to adapt
[03:46] The importance of measuring marketing effectiveness and integrating KPIs into the sales process
[07:36] How to position and market services that don’t have tangible “speeds and feeds”
[08:28] Letting go of the fear of “giving away your secret sauce” in thought leadership content
[10:30] Systemizing stories and messaging to scale sales efforts across a growing team
[12:14] How to use lead nurturing email campaigns to drive engagement and trust over time
🗣️ Key Quotes
Sean O’Shaughnessey: “Sales is a really expensive marketing arm if you’re not doing really good marketing.” — [05:59]
Kevin Lawson: “Tell how you win, how you help others win, and how they win when working with you—this is as key as anything in professional services.” — [10:52]
Chris Spanier: “If you freely share value, people won’t take advantage of you—they’ll start trusting you. That’s the first step in real sales success.” — [08:54] “Marketing is half magic and half numbers. But the numbers—that’s where the proof comes in.” — [04:14]
Systemize your lead nurturing. Create a recurring, value-focused email campaign to maintain top-of-mind awareness. Whether your cadence is every three or six weeks, focus 80% on providing helpful insights and only 20% on pitching your services. Tracking measures email open rates and clicks, and then the behavior is aligned with site visits or follow-up outreach. This strategy turns occasional touchpoints into consistent momentum, critical for long-cycle sales in professional services.
🎧 Why You Should Listen Now
This episode is packed with strategic clarity and tactical insight for anyone selling invisible services. Whether you’re a fractional executive, consultant, or marketing-savvy sales leader, you’ll leave with a more innovative approach to messaging, a stronger understanding of sales and marketing alignment, and actionable ways to drive revenue generation with business acumen. Tune in now and rethink how you build trust and momentum in your professional services pipeline.
When sales professionals hit a roadblock, where do they turn? In this episode of Two Tall Guys Talking Sales, Kevin Lawson and Sean O’Shaughnessey unveil an exciting new initiative: B2B Sales Lab, a private peer networking community designed to support salespeople, sales managers, and business owners in their journey toward revenue generation excellence. This isn’t just a conversation; rather, we are offering an invitation to join something powerful. If you’ve ever felt alone in a tough sales challenge or wished for experienced advice on your messaging, sales processes, or strategy, this episode is for you.
Key Topics Discussed
(00:00) Why selling isn’t easy and how sales professionals can benefit from a support network
(00:39) The creation and mission of the B2B Sales Lab community
(01:42) How the platform fosters peer-to-peer learning without judgment or pressure
(02:58) The importance of community in developing strong sales strategies and business acumen
(03:54) Guardrails that make this space safer and more effective than LinkedIn or Facebook groups
(05:00) Why there’s a membership fee—and why the first three months are free
Key Quotes
Sean O’Shaughnessey (00:01:00): “We’re creating a community where people can get together, bounce ideas off each other without fear—just designed to help.”
Kevin Lawson (00:02:58): “It’s unreasonable to think your small sales team has all the answers. But it’s completely reasonable to find a community that does.”
Sean O’Shaughnessey (00:04:16): “If you’re not a salesperson or sales leader, you’re not getting in. This isn’t about selling to each other. It’s about growing together.”
Additional Resources
B2B Sales Lab Information & Registration: https://newsales.expert/b2b-sales-lab (Free for the first three months with no obligation.)
A Significant Actionable Item from this Podcast
Join the B2B Sales Lab. If you’ve ever wished you had a sounding board for a tough sales call, a creative partner to work through messaging, or a peer to validate your sales strategy, this is your moment. Visit the link in the show notes and apply to join the B2B Sales Lab. The first three months are free, giving you access to experienced sales minds, curated content on value selling and revenue management, and a judgment-free environment to grow your sales acumen. Don’t wait for your next deal to fall through; build your support system today.
Why You Should Listen
This episode is a call to action for sales professionals serious about growth. If you’re navigating complex sales cycles, seeking stronger messaging, or simply want a community that understands your world, the B2B Sales Lab might be the resource you’ve been missing. Kevin and Sean, both seasoned in sales leadership and sales management, offer not just insights but an entire framework to elevate your career. Listen now to learn how to take the next step toward sustainable sales success—and connect with others on the same journey.
In this episode of Two Tall Guys Talking Sales, hosts Kevin Lawson and Sean O’Shaughnessey are joined by veteran fractional VP of Sales, John McLeod. Together, they dive into a critical topic for today’s sales leaders: embracing artificial intelligence tools without compromising your value proposition, messaging, or sales processes. John brings deep expertise in sales management, business acumen, and revenue generation strategies, offering a measured approach to evaluating sales tech, especially AI solutions, through a risk-and-reward lens. Whether you’re a business owner, sales manager, or BDR excited about AI, this conversation grounds you in practical wisdom.
Key Topics Discussed
The Real Risk of AI in Sales (00:01:22): How overreliance on untrained AI tools can misrepresent your brand and do more harm than good.
Sales Productivity vs. Organizational Efficiency (00:02:01): Why the focus shouldn’t just be on doing more faster, but also on syncing with your company’s value selling model
Three Essential AI Use Cases in Sales (00:03:25): Research, qualification, and outreach—and why each comes with its own operational risk.
The Ethical Use of AI and Messaging Integrity (00:07:43): Why maintaining consistent messaging across AI-enabled tools is essential to preserving brand integrity and revenue management.
Training AI for Sales Value (00:10:00): How smart prompt engineering and structured inputs drive better outcomes from generative AI tools.
Key Quotes
John McLeod (00:05:27): “AI tools are meant to be trained. The biggest risk is: are they in fact supporting your unique and distinctive value proposition and holding true to that?”
Sean O’Shaughnessey (00:11:38): “You won’t lose your job to AI—but you might lose it to another salesperson who knows how to use AI more effectively.”
Kevin Lawson (00:09:40): “When you introduce AI and efficiency, that naturally raises the bar of expectation for performance. What is the new normal when you get there?”
Additional Resources
John McLeod’s LinkedIn Profile – https://www.linkedin.com/in/johnmcleod1/
A Significant Actionable Item from this Podcast
Train Your AI with Purpose: Don’t just “plug and play” AI tools. Take the time to structure your inputs and refine your prompts so that the tool reflects your value, not just generic sales content. Spend time A/B testing different approaches to ensure messaging aligns with your company’s strategic sales positioning. Start today by reviewing your most recent outreach generated by AI and ask: “Does this truly represent our value?” If not, retrain your prompts before using them again.
Why You Should Listen Now
If you’ve ever been tempted by the next great sales tool or AI platform promising instant leads and effortless sales success, this episode will recalibrate your thinking. John McLeod delivers candid insights on balancing tech adoption with strategic discipline. With Sean and Kevin steering the conversation, this discussion is rich with real-world experience in sales management, messaging, and revenue generation. Tune in now to stay ahead without losing what makes your company valuable.
In this week’s episode of Two Tall Guys Talking Sales, Kevin Lawson and Sean O’Shaughnessey are joined by the “Elder Statesman” of fractional sales management: John Lee. With nearly four decades of experience and a deep track record of helping companies hire top-performing sales professionals, John shares a masterclass in sales hiring strategy. Whether you’re scaling from a two-person team to ten or trying to avoid costly hiring mistakes, this episode delivers practical, field-tested advice on building elite sales teams, strengthening your sales processes, and aligning talent with company culture.
Don’t miss this conversation if you’re committed to improving your sales success through smarter hiring, better business acumen, and scalable revenue generation.
Key Topics Discussed:
The Hiring Mindset for Growth Companies (00:01:45) Why hiring rock stars—not warm bodies—matters and how John filters for high performers.
From First Hire to Scaling a Team (00:04:44) CEOs and sales leaders must ask the evolving questions when hiring their 3rd, 5th, or 10th rep.
Psychographics, Not Just Resumes (00:05:24) How John builds candidate profiles that match top performers using behavior and motivation, not just skills.
Parallel Sales and Hiring Processes (00:08:00) Why a successful sales hiring process mirrors your value selling strategy—with defined steps, assessments, and clear messaging.
Avoiding Common Hiring Mistakes (00:11:43) The critical danger of hiring salespeople who are better at selling themselves than your solution.
Top 3 Rules for Hiring Sales Talent (00:13:33) John’s unfiltered checklist for hiring decisions that fuel revenue growth and protect your sales culture.
Key Quotes:
John Lee: “Don’t hire someone who can’t show they’ve been successful—and don’t hire someone who doesn’t fit your culture.” (00:13:57)
Sean O’Shaughnessey: “A salesperson might not be able to sell your product to save their life—but they’re often great at selling themselves. That’s a trap for business owners.” (00:11:55)
Kevin Lawson: “You talk about hiring the way you talk about sales infrastructure—it’s all about process, fit, and purpose.” (00:07:42)
LinkedIn: John Lee – https://www.linkedin.com/in/johnleeportlandoregon/
A Significant Actionable Item from this Podcast:
Design a Hiring Process Like a Sales Process Treat your hiring efforts with the same rigor as your sales process. Start by defining a psychographic profile based on your top performers. Use structured assessments to evaluate “sales DNA” and focus interviews on demonstrated success, not just confidence. Then, make cultural fit a deal-breaker. Great hires aren’t just competent—they’re aligned with your mission, methods, and team dynamics.
Summary Paragraph:
This episode is essential listening for sales leaders and business owners looking to scale their teams without sacrificing culture, performance, or momentum. John Lee brings a rare mix of seasoned sales management expertise and real-world hiring acumen to the table. If you want to improve revenue generation through smarter hiring and better sales strategies, you’ll find actionable insights packed into every minute. Don’t settle for average; build a sales team that drives success. Tune in now.
When it comes to holding firm on pricing, many salespeople stumble at the finish line, undermining their value and margin in pursuit of a quick win. In this episode of Two Tall Guys Talking Sales, Kevin Lawson and Sean O’Shaughnessey explore the essential topic of value selling, especially when offering a premium-priced solution. They break down how business acumen, sales strategy, and relationship-based selling contribute to sales success—and how to confidently command the price your product deserves. If you’ve ever been told you’re “too expensive,” this is your playbook for holding the line and still closing the deal.
Key Topics Discussed
Why customers buy more than just your product—they buy your company and you (00:01:00)
The danger of sending a quote without a conversation (00:02:21)
How sales reps can create momentum in late-stage deals by previewing terms early (00:03:00)
Breaking away from “feeds and speeds” and focusing on business outcomes (00:05:00)
Real-world coaching example: winning a deal despite being $9,000 more expensive (00:08:25)
The importance of sales process alignment with customer learning styles (00:10:48)
Key Quotes
“Your customers are not just buying your product—they’re buying your company, and they’re buying the wisdom of the salesperson.” — Sean O’Shaughnessey (00:01:00)
“Don’t just throw a document on their desk that says, ‘here’s my price.’ That’s not value selling. That’s transactional noise.” — Kevin Lawson (00:03:21)
“I told her: thank them for the feedback. Tell them you can’t meet the price because you’re delivering something of higher value—and she won the deal.” — Sean O’Shaughnessey (00:09:01)
“If you’re always responding with a discount, you’re not putting forward the confidence that your product actually delivers value.” — Kevin Lawson (00:10:28)
A Significant Actionable Item from this Podcast
Stop emailing quotes—start previewing them. Before sending out another proposal or quote, schedule a call or meeting with your prospect to review the terms and value proposition. Use that time to reinforce the business impact of your solution and clarify any remaining concerns. This approach increases close rates and reduces last-minute pricing objections, protecting revenue and margin.
Summary
In today’s ultra-competitive B2B environment, salespeople must do more than deliver specs—they must deliver confidence. This episode of Two Tall Guys Talking Sales arms you with a clear, repeatable strategy for commanding premium pricing through value selling. If you’re serious about improving your sales management, sales processes, and revenue generation tactics, then this 15-minute episode could be the most profitable quarter-hour of your week. Tune in now and elevate your ability to win—without discounting.
In this dynamic episode of Two Tall Guys Talking Sales, hosts Kevin Lawson and Sean O’Shaughnessey welcome Canadian SalesXceleration expert Steve Wittal for an in-depth look into the foundations of effective sales strategies. Steve brings decades of experience in startup advisory, sales management, and business growth, sharing a robust framework that simplifies complex growth challenges into four digestible buckets: desirability, clarity, predictability, and deliverability. If you’re a business leader looking to strengthen your sales processes, sharpen your messaging, or improve revenue generation, this conversation is a goldmine.
Key Topics Discussed
The Power of Leadership in Change Management (~01:02) Steve opens by explaining why leadership is the starting point for any growth initiative, especially when change is involved.
The Four Buckets Framework for Growth (~03:00) Steve outlines his method for diagnosing and resolving growth issues by focusing on four pillars: desirability, clarity, predictability, and deliverability.
Desirability and Understanding the Customer’s Pain (~04:00) Why identifying whether your product is a “must-have” or “nice-to-have” is critical to sales success.
The Importance of Clarity and Quantifying the Cost of Inaction (~06:39) Sean and Steve unpack how clarity in messaging and value proposition can move buyers from indecision to action.
Predictability, Scalability, and Sales Playbooks (~09:20) How aligning your sales process with the customer’s buying journey enables scale and drives predictable revenue.
Deliverability and the Voice of the Customer (~10:50) Steve emphasizes the importance of retention, early wins, and referrals as indicators that your solution truly delivers.
Key Quotes
Steve Wittal: “A problem well-defined is a problem half-solved. Before we prescribe, we have to truly understand.” (~02:46)
Kevin Lawson: “When you’ve dotted all those i’s, it makes you a market-facing product. That’s how you achieve market fit.” (~13:25)
Sean O’Shaughnessey: “When a customer comes to you and says, ‘Can you help me solve this?’ — that’s sales nirvana.” (~08:35)
Additional Resources
Connect with Steve Wittal on LinkedIn – https://www.linkedin.com/in/stevewittal/
Steve’s email: Steve Wittal <swittal@salesxceleration.com>
A Significant Actionable Item from this Podcast
Audit Your Sales Strategy Through the Four Buckets. Take a moment to evaluate your organization’s performance across Steve’s four key areas:
Desirability: Is your product essential or optional to your buyers?
Clarity: Can your team articulate your value proposition in a way that resonates with prospects and highlights the cost of inaction?
Predictability: Do you have a repeatable sales process that aligns with how your customers buy?
Deliverability: Are you consistently delivering on promises and capturing client feedback to validate success?
This self-assessment will uncover gaps in your current sales approach and point to immediate areas for improvement.
Summary
Whether you’re leading a startup or managing a growing sales team, this episode delivers a concise yet powerful framework for achieving sales success. Steve Wittal’s “Four Buckets” offer practical, business acumen–driven insights that will help you reframe your growth strategy and improve every stage of your sales process. If you’re serious about improving revenue generation and becoming a trusted advisor in your client relationships, don’t miss this episode. Tune in now and transform your approach to value selling.
Let’s start this article with a rhetorical question to the sales professionals, sales managers, or CEOs: Have you ever found yourself guilty of sending messages to prospects without fully considering their specific needs or how your offer aligns with them?
If so, you’re not alone—this is a common pitfall in sales. The good news is, it’s entirely fixable by developing a straightforward, strategic approach.
An effective sales strategy hinges on three core components: defining your ideal client profile (ICP), crafting a resonant message, and presenting a compelling offer. These elements are interconnected. Mastering their alignment will significantly enhance your sales effectiveness.
Ideal Client Profile
Let’s start with the ideal client profile. How well do you know the companies you’re targeting? Identifying your ideal customer is foundational to your entire sales approach. It’s not enough to say that your market is “small businesses” or “tech companies.” Instead, think about your best clients—the ones you genuinely enjoy working with, who value your product, and who generate profitable, sustainable business. Think about companies that rarely devalue your product or service by asking for a discount. What do these clients have in common?
Now that you have your favorite customers from above, reflect on your top five or ten accounts. Are they in the same industry? Do they share similar challenges or company structures? Perhaps they all have common goals that your product consistently solves. Pinpoint these commonalities. This process will help you create a precise and actionable ideal client profile.
But don’t stop at company-level characteristics. Remember, even in B2B sales, you’re ultimately selling to individuals. Identify the specific roles or buyers within these organizations that are responsible for making buying decisions. Who are these decision-makers? What motivates them personally and professionally? Do they all have the same kind of college education? Do they all have similar career paths? Understanding the people behind the logo makes your outreach more personal, targeted, and effective.
What is your message?
Once you’ve developed a clear picture of your ideal client and the people within those companies, the next step is crafting a message that reflects your value-selling message. This message is how you communicate your value proposition—it’s the bridge between your product and your prospect’s needs. Too often, sales messaging falls flat because it focuses heavily on the seller rather than the buyer. Statements that emphasize “we,” “I,” or “our product” rarely resonate deeply. Instead, effective messaging highlights the customer’s perspective, clearly communicating the benefits they will experience.
In this episode of Two Tall Guys Talking Sales, hosts Kevin Lawson and Sean O’Shaughnessey sit down with John Spencer, a seasoned sales leader and founder of Clear Direction Sales Development. Together, they explore the crucial differences between growth and scale, particularly in organizations leaning too heavily on a superstar seller. If you’re leading a sales organization that relies on one standout performer—or trying to replicate success across your sales team—this is a must-listen conversation packed with real-world examples and hard-earned wisdom. The trio unpacks why scalable sales processes and strong business acumen matter far more than a single heroic quota-crusher and how to transform your entire team into a consistent revenue-generation engine.
Key Topics Discussed
[00:01:20] The difference between growth and scale—and why one without the other creates risk
[00:02:30] How over-reliance on a “super seller” can mask weak sales infrastructure
[00:04:00] Why building a team of B players can be the key to sales success and organizational growth
[00:06:00] Why your people strategy outweighs even the best sales tech or product
[00:09:00] How aligning your company around Ideal Customer Profiles (ICPs) and value selling accelerates performance
[00:11:00] Inspiring second-tier sellers to level up—and the systems that make that possible
Key Quotes
Kevin Lawson [00:00:00]: “What do you do when you’ve got a standout salesperson and you’re trying to scale? Today’s the day to take notes and learn from best practices—and avoid the ones that put you in a bind.”
John Spencer [00:01:50]: “Growth is often just out-hustling the competition. Scale is when your sales management creates repeatable success across the team.”
Sean O’Shaughnessey [00:04:00]: “You can’t build a company on nothing but A players. You need B players who can perform with strong sales processes—that’s how you truly scale.”
John Spencer [00:07:24]: “When one salesperson becomes the center of gravity, the whole company starts working for them. That doesn’t scale.”
John Spencer [00:10:08]: “Let’s align the organization to help the salesperson like they’re a mini-CEO. That’s how we build momentum and create sustainable revenue management.”
Contact: Direct phone, email, and Calendly available on John’s LinkedIn
A Significant Actionable Item from this Podcast
Stop idolizing your top seller—start systematizing their success. Identify what makes your A player successful, then document and distribute that knowledge across your sales organization. Build a repeatable process that supports B players in becoming high performers. Use Ideal Customer Profiles (ICPs), clear value propositions, and structured onboarding to reduce variance and elevate the middle 60% of your team.
Why You Should Listen to This Episode
If your company is stuck in a “hero model” of selling—where success depends on a single superstar—this episode will open your eyes to what’s truly holding your sales strategy back. With practical insights on aligning your team, refining your messaging, and unlocking scalable revenue generation, John Spencer joins Kevin and Sean in a candid conversation that blends military-grade leadership with sales precision. Whether you’re a CEO, VP of Sales, or just trying to level up your sales team, this episode is your blueprint for transitioning from hustle-based growth to process-driven scale. Don’t miss it—press play and rethink what it means to grow.
The symbiotic relationship between sales and marketing is more crucial than ever. This dynamic duo drives the revenue generation engine, which is especially crucial when businesses are keen to set a positive trajectory.
Marketing’s influence cannot be understated. It often shapes the business’s success months in advance. Strategies implemented by marketing today can significantly impact revenue streams later in the year. Therefore, it’s essential for sales and marketing to align and integrate their processes to ensure that marketing efforts translate into tangible sales results.
In this context, sales enablement emerges as a key strategy, bridging marketing initiatives and sales execution. By segmenting the customer journey into three categories—leads, prospects, and customers—both teams can tailor their strategies to effectively move individuals through the sales funnel. Marketing focuses on generating awareness and attracting leads, while sales teams convert these leads into qualified prospects and, ultimately, loyal customers.
The conversation around leads often circles back to the quality of leads generated by marketing and the clarity with which sales teams define what constitutes a ‘good lead.’ This mutual understanding and cooperative process streamline efforts and ensure that marketing is not just generating leads but the right leads.
Moreover, discussing the effectiveness versus efficiency in marketing strategies can significantly refine the targeting process. Marketing must be efficient and effective, emphasizing the right messaging and content that resonates with the ideal client profile (ICP). This approach ensures that the prospects entering the sales pipeline are more likely to convert as they align closely with the business’s target demographic.
A noteworthy strategy for enhancing this alignment is developing a concise value selling proposition. This tool aids marketing teams in crafting messages that encapsulate what the business does in a clear, compelling manner, which sales teams can then leverage to engage and convert leads effectively.
For smaller businesses or those without extensive in-house marketing teams, sales leadership can strategically define and refine marketing strategies. Questions like “Why do people pay us?” or “What differentiates us from our competition?” can ignite discussions pinpointing the business’s core value. Engaging directly with customers to understand why they chose and continue to choose your company provides invaluable insights that can shape future marketing and sales strategies.
Ultimately, the integration of sales and marketing is not merely about aligning goals but about creating a cohesive strategy that utilizes the strengths of each to optimize the customer journey. Whether it involves developing compelling content that speaks directly to the needs of potential clients or refining the sales process to highlight the value over features, each element is crucial in building a robust sales and marketing framework that attracts and retains customers.
For businesses looking to deepen their understanding of this integral relationship, embracing discussions around sales enablement, value proposition, and customer feedback is essential. These elements are not just isolated tactics but parts of a comprehensive approach that can dramatically improve how businesses attract and maintain their customer base, ensuring sustained growth and success.
Company leaders can start implementing some of these topics today!
Evaluate Your Current Sales and Marketing Alignment: Take the time today to review how your sales and marketing teams are currently aligned. Identify any gaps in communication or process and schedule a meeting to discuss these findings with both teams. This will help set the stage for improved collaboration and efficiency.
Define Your Ideal Customer Profile (ICP): If you haven’t already, work on defining or refining your ICP. This involves gathering insights from your sales and marketing teams to ensure the profile accurately reflects the customers most likely to buy and benefit from your product or service. This alignment is critical for targeting and attracting the right leads.
Develop a Concise Value Proposition: Collaborate with key stakeholders from both teams to craft a clear, compelling value proposition that communicates the unique benefits of your offerings. This should be a concise statement that potential customers can easily communicate and understand, guiding your marketing content and sales pitches.
Solicit Customer Feedback: Contact a select group of new and long-term customers to gather feedback on why they chose your company and why they stay. Use this feedback to adjust your sales strategies and marketing messages, ensuring they resonate deeply with your target audience and reflect the actual value you provide.
In business-to-business sales, extending discounts holds a place of ancient reverence, a tactic as old as commerce itself. This approach, crafted to escalate sales volume, capitalizes on a fundamental business purchasing principle: the quest for cost efficiency. By lowering the prices of goods or services, firms aspire to enhance the desirability of their products, thereby aiming to boost demand and, consequently, sales volume. Employing this tactic becomes particularly compelling in scenarios such as launching a new product line during contract renewal phases or seeking to penetrate deeper into highly competitive markets. The underlying premise is straightforward: reduced prices are anticipated to drive up sales volumes, potentially offsetting the dip in margins per unit sold.
However, offering a prospect a discount warrants careful consideration. While the immediate benefits—spiked interest from potential clients, an uptick in sales volumes, and the rapid inventory turnover—might seem enticing, the broader implications unveil a complex set of ramifications. This article endeavors to peel away the layers enveloping this widespread sales strategy, illuminating its influence on profitability, and evaluating its sustainability as a long-term practice.
Navigating the Complexity of Discounting in B2B Sales
At initial consideration, discounts present an ostensibly harmonious scenario: clients secure the products or services they need at reduced rates, while companies witness a boost in sales activity. Nevertheless, the stark reality is that indiscriminate discounting can significantly undermine profitability. This necessitates a nuanced understanding of profitability metrics: gross profit versus net profit.
In professional business-to-business sales, the sales team doesn’t need a CPA, but they should know the basics of finance. Understanding the interplay between Gross Profit, Net Profit, COGS (Cost of Goods Sold), and SG&A (Selling, General & Administrative Expenses) is pivotal for any organization aiming to fine-tune its operational efficiency and profitability. These metrics, each distinct in scope and impact, collectively offer a comprehensive view of a company’s financial health. Let’s delve into these concepts, exploring their nuances and significance in the broader context of business management.
COGS: The Direct Costs Tied to Production
COGS encompasses the direct costs attributable to the production of the goods or services sold by a company. This includes raw materials, labor costs directly involved in production, and manufacturing overheads. COGS is a critical metric for management to consider, as it directly affects the Gross Profit. By optimizing production processes or negotiating better terms with suppliers, a company can effectively lower its COGS, thereby increasing its Gross Profit margin—an essential strategy for enhancing profitability.
SG&A: The Overhead of Running a Business
SG&A represents the cumulative expenses incurred from selling, general, and administrative activities. These are the costs associated with operating the business that are not directly tied to production, including sales force salaries, marketing expenses, rent, utilities, and administrative salaries. SG&A expenses are significant because they do not directly contribute to producing goods or services; they are essential for the company’s day-to-day operations and strategic positioning in the market. Effective management of SG&A expenses can significantly influence a company’s Net Profit, as these costs can either erode or support profitability depending on how they are controlled.
Gross Profit: The Initial Gauge of Profitability
Gross Profit is the initial measure of a company’s financial performance, calculated by subtracting the Cost of Goods Sold (COGS) from the total revenue generated from sales. This figure is crucial because it reflects the efficiency with which a company produces or sources its goods and services before accounting for broader operational costs. For instance, if a company generates $1 million in sales and incurs $600,000 in COGS, its Gross Profit would be $400,000. This metric indicates the company’s production or procurement efficiency but does not account for the overheads and other operating expenses that also impact the company’s profitability.
Net Profit: The Ultimate Measure of Financial Health
Net Profit, often considered the bottom line, is the ultimate indicator of a company’s profitability after all expenses, including COGS, SG&A, interest, and taxes, have been deducted from total revenue. It is the most comprehensive measure of a company’s financial performance, revealing what remains as actual profit. For example, continuing from the Gross Profit scenario, if the company has additional operating expenses of $200,000 and taxes and interest amounting to $50,000, the Net Profit would be $150,000. This figure is paramount for stakeholders to assess the company’s profitability and sustainability.
Gross profit, calculated as the revenue from sales minus the cost of goods sold (COGS), provides an initial insight into the financial gain from sales. Yet, the net profit, the remainder after deducting all operational expenditures, interest, taxes, and Selling, General & Administrative (SGA) expenses from the gross profit, genuinely encapsulates a company’s financial health.
How All Of This Applies to Salespeople
In most companies, the sales team cannot change the COGS or SG&A for any deal. The only thing salespeople can typically control is the Selling Price; from that Selling Price, the costs have to be deducted to calculate the Net Profit.
Let’s dissect the financial dynamics further. Assume a service in the B2B sector is offered at a standard rate of $100,000, with a COGS of $60,000, rendering a gross profit of $40,000—a 40% gross margin. With the 20% SGA and other operational costs factored in, the net profit might settle at $20,000 per sale, constituting a 20% net margin on the transaction.
Assuming the costs in the company are static, introducing a 10% discount drops the service price to $90,000. While the gross profit shrinks to $30,000 after we take out the $60,000 in COGS, the net profit is disproportionately affected. The fixed nature of SGA expenses means they remain constant, dramatically squeezing the net margin. In this example, the net profit after the 10% discount drops from $20,000 to $10,000.
Let’s summarize this example without all of the wording:
0% Discount
5% Discount
10% Discount
List Price
$100,000
$100,000
$100,000
Selling Price
$100.000
$95,000
$90,000
COGS
$60,000
$60,000
$60,000
Gross Profit
$40,000
$35,000
$30,000
SG&A
$20,000
$20,000
$20,000
Net Profit
$20,000
$15,000
$10,000
As you can see from the above table, a 5% discount means a 25% reduction in Net Profit for this hypothetical company. A 10% discount means a 50% discount in Net Profit.
The critical question then becomes: How much additional sales volume is necessary to maintain or increase overall profitability post-discount? The revelation often shocks: a minor discount demands a significant upsurge in sales volume to compensate for the reduced net profitability—a challenging feat in the B2B landscape, where sales cycles are longer and client acquisition efforts more intensive.
Let’s show that math more clearly with the above example. Let’s assume that the above company only sells products with a $100,000 list price and they do 100 deals in a year. That means if all of the deals are at least price, they will achieve a gross revenue of $10,000,000 and a net profit of $2,000,000.
However, if the company gives everyone a 5% discount and the company’s stockholders want the same net profit, they will have to do $2M divided by $15K deals. That is 134 deals or a 34% increase in the number of deals. This means that a 5% discount means the sales team has to close 34% more deals to contribute the same net profit to the shareholders.
If the company gives everyone a 10% discount and the company’s stockholders want the same net profit, they will have to do $2M divided by $10K deals. That is 200 deals or a 100% increase in the number of deals. This means that a 10% discount means the sales team has to close twice the number of deals to contribute the same amount of net profit to the shareholders.
Reassessing the Discount Strategy
The appeal of leveraging discounts to amplify sales volume in the B2B sector is undeniable but fraught with pitfalls. Such strategies can erode net profitability, necessitate unrealistic sales volume increases to maintain financial stability, and might inadvertently signal desperation or devalue the proposition in the eyes of business clients. The purpose of this article is not to outright condemn discounting but to advocate for a strategic application thereof. Companies should meticulously evaluate the immediate allure of increased sales against the enduring implications for profitability. In numerous instances, alternative strategies that add value or enhance service offerings may present a more viable route to growth and financial robustness.
The Commission Conundrum: Revenue vs. Profitability
In the intricate ecosystem of sales and profitability, a critical and often overlooked element is the structure of sales commissions. The traditional commission model incentivizes sales personnel—and, by extension, their managers—based on the volume or dollar value of sales achieved, not the profitability of those sales to the company. This misalignment between the sales force’s motivations and the company’s overarching financial goals can lead to a significant disconnect, particularly in the context of discounting strategies.
As a lever of motivation, sales commissions are designed to spur sales teams to higher performance levels. However, when commissions are tied solely to revenue without consideration for profitability, it encourages a focus on the top line at the expense of the bottom line. For instance, a salesperson might be driven to close deals by offering discounts, thereby boosting their sales figures—and, by extension, their commissions—even if such discounts erode the company’s net profit. This scenario is further compounded if the salesperson’s manager, who also benefits from the team’s revenue performance, supports such discount-driven sales tactics without regard to their impact on profitability.
This model creates a fundamental misalignment between the sales team’s goals and top management’s strategic objectives. While sales teams are propelled towards maximizing raw revenue, top management’s primary concern is enhancing net profit—the company’s financial health indicator. The crux of the problem lies in the fact that discounts, while potentially beneficial for achieving short-term sales targets, can significantly undermine net profit margins. This is particularly true in industries where the cost structure is fixed or semi-fixed, and reducing prices does not proportionately decrease costs.
Implementing Safeguards: Aligning Sales Strategies with Profitability Goals
The solution to this problem lies in implementing robust safeguards and a strategic overhaul of the commission structure. First, establishing a rigorous discount approval process can be an effective checkpoint. This process ensures that discounts align with broader financial strategies and the company’s profitability goals. Such a system might include tiered discount limits, beyond which sales personnel must obtain managerial or executive approval.
Second, reconfiguring the commission model to incorporate profitability metrics can realign the incentives for the sales team with the company’s financial objectives. This might involve setting commissions based on net profit generated by sales rather than gross revenue. Alternatively, a balanced scorecard approach, with MBO goals (Management By Objective), including revenue and profitability targets, can incentivize sales personnel to consider the broader financial implications of their sales tactics.
Bridging the Gap Between Sales and Profitability
The alignment of sales strategies with the company’s profitability objectives is not merely a financial imperative but a strategic necessity. By reevaluating commission structures and implementing safeguards against indiscriminate discounting, companies can ensure that their sales efforts contribute positively to the bottom line. This approach fosters a culture where the sales team is not just focused on meeting revenue targets but is also mindful of the profitability and financial health of the organization. In doing so, companies can bridge the gap between pursuing raw revenue and the imperative of net profit, ensuring long-term sustainability and growth. This strategic alignment is crucial for navigating the complex interplay between sales incentives and company profitability, ultimately leading to a more cohesive and financially robust business model.
The delicate balance between pursuing immediate revenue gains through discounts and maintaining the integrity of net profitability demands a strategic reevaluation. The allure of discounts, often seen as a shortcut to achieving sales targets, undeniably poses a significant challenge to profitability. However, the proper resolution lies not in the mere restriction of discounts but in the fundamental shift towards selling value, cultivating champions within client organizations, and ensuring a seamless product alignment with the customer’s needs and objectives. This comprehensive approach mitigates the adverse effects of discounting on profitability and fortifies the foundation for sustainable, value-driven sales practices.
Selling Value: Elevating the Conversation Beyond Price
The cornerstone of mitigating the need for discounts is effectively articulating and demonstrating value. Value selling transcends the simplistic equation of cost versus features, delving into the tangible and intangible benefits that the product or service brings to the customer. This involves a meticulous understanding of the customer’s business landscape, challenges, and strategic objectives. By positioning the product or service as a pivotal solution that addresses these elements, sales professionals can pivot the conversation from price to value, emphasizing the return on investment (ROI) and the broader impact on the customer’s business.
The art of selling value requires a systematic approach, blending analytical rigor with a deep empathy for the customer’s context. It involves crafting a narrative that resonates with the customer’s aspirations and needs, backed by concrete data and case studies that illustrate the positive outcomes achieved by similar clients. This strategy elevates the customer’s perception of the product and fosters a more profound, consultative relationship that is less susceptible to the commoditization pressures that drive discounting.
Building Champions: The Power of Internal Advocacy
Another pivotal strategy is the cultivation of champions within the customer’s organization. Champions are internal advocates who understand and believe in the product or service’s value and are willing to mobilize support for it within their organization. Building champions involves identifying potential advocates based on their influence, alignment with the product’s value proposition, and professional objectives.
Empowering these champions requires providing them with the knowledge, tools, and confidence to articulate the value proposition internally effectively. This includes tailored presentations, compelling case studies, and data-driven ROI analyses that they can use to persuade other stakeholders. Champions serve as a critical bridge, amplifying the sales message and facilitating a deeper engagement with the customer organization. They help navigate internal dynamics and objections, making the sales process more efficient and reducing the reliance on discounts as a persuasive tool.
Aligning Product to Customer’s Needs and Goals: The Keystone of Value
At the heart of the solution to discount-driven sales challenges lies the alignment of the product or service with the customer’s needs and goals. This alignment ensures that the offering is not just a generic solution but a strategic fit that addresses specific challenges and capitalizes on unique opportunities within the customer’s business. Achieving this alignment requires a consultative sales approach characterized by active listening, probing questions, and a collaborative exploration of the customer’s business environment.
This process involves understanding the current needs and anticipating future challenges and opportunities. The sales professional must adopt a strategic advisor role, leveraging insights and expertise to guide the customer toward solutions that meet immediate needs and support long-term objectives. This level of alignment fosters a partnership-based relationship, where the product or service’s value is inherently recognized, reducing the customer’s sensitivity to price and diminishing the need for discounts.
A Strategic Blueprint for Sustainable Sales Success
The challenges posed by discounting strategies to profitability are significant but manageable. The proper solution lies in a holistic approach that focuses on selling value, building champions, and ensuring a deep alignment between the product and the customer’s needs and goals. This strategy requires a shift from transactional sales tactics to a more consultative and value-driven sales methodology.
By effectively selling value, sales professionals can elevate the conversation beyond price, emphasizing the broader business impact and ROI of their offering. Building champions within customer organizations create powerful allies who can advocate for the product internally, leveraging their influence to support the sales process. Finally, ensuring that the product is closely aligned with the customer’s strategic needs and goals solidifies the foundation for a partnership-based relationship, where the inherent value of the solution diminishes the focus on price and negates the need for discounts.
This approach addresses the immediate challenge of maintaining profitability in the face of discount pressures and lays the groundwork for sustainable sales success. It fosters more profound and more meaningful customer relationships built on a foundation of trust, value, and strategic alignment. In doing so, it positions companies to achieve short-term sales targets and long-term business objectives, securing a competitive advantage in the complex landscape of B2B sales.
Actions That You Can Take Today
To address the challenge of discounts affecting profitability without altering COGS or SG&A costs, sales managers and CEOs can implement the following five actionable steps today to enhance their company’s profitability through strategic sales practices:
Reframe the Sales Conversation Around Value, Not Price: Train your sales team to pivot discussions with clients from price to the comprehensive value your product or service offers. This involves deepening their understanding of the client’s business needs and how your solutions can address these needs in a way that contributes positively to the client’s profitability and operational efficiency. Encourage your team to prepare case studies and ROI analyses that clearly articulate the long-term benefits and cost savings of choosing your product or service over cheaper alternatives.
Introduce a Value-based Commission Structure: Redesign the commission structure to reward sales personnel not just for gross revenue, but also for selling at or near list price, thereby preserving or enhancing profitability. This could include bonuses for deals closed without discounts or additional incentives for upselling value-adding features or services that improve customer outcomes without significantly increasing discount levels.
Establish Strict Discount Approval Processes: Implement a tiered approval process for discounts requiring higher management levels to sign off on larger discounts. This process should include a profitability analysis to ensure that any discounts granted do not erode the net profit margin below an acceptable threshold. Making the discounting process more rigorous will encourage sales teams to seek alternative strategies to close deals.
Cultivate and Empower Internal Champions: Develop a program to identify and nurture champions within your prospects—key individuals who understand and believe in the value of your solutions. Provide these champions with the tools and information they need to advocate effectively on your behalf, turning them into an extension of your sales team. This might include exclusive insights into product development, customized value assessments, or early access to new features or services.
Align Sales Goals with Strategic Business Objectives: Ensure that your sales team’s objectives align with the company’s broader strategic goals, particularly profitability. This might involve setting specific targets for selling certain products or services with higher profit margins or developing bundled offerings that meet customer needs more comprehensively while improving profitability. Regularly review these goals and the strategies employed to achieve them, adjusting as necessary to keep your sales efforts focused on enhancing the bottom line.
By implementing these strategies, sales managers and CEOs can drive their teams towards practices that maintain and potentially increase profitability, even when discounts are off the table. These action items foster a culture of value selling, strategic negotiation, and customer-centric solutions, ultimately contributing to sustainable growth and profitability.
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